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russelld
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hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:32 pm

The saga continues....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkX25FGrg5A

2.4Ghz Wi-Fi only.

At least it comes with 128MB storage and not 16MB....

USB C power input - great for travelling!

https://mikrotik.com/product/hap_ax_lite

https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/hAPaxlite_230135.pdf

R
 
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honzam
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:39 pm

year 2023 and only 2,4Ghz wifi?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:44 pm

We have devices with 5GHz. Not everyone needs 5GHz. Sometimes price is more important
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:45 pm

We have devices with 5GHz. Not everyone needs 5GHz. Sometimes price is more important
+1000
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:52 pm

Let's see where prices end up nowadays with inflation, etc.
I think I paid ~65€ incl taxes for a hap ac2 some years ago, so $60 for a 2.4GHz only device does not appear that attractiv at first glance.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:57 pm

If it helps, you can imagine this as a powerful Gigabit Ethernet router with optional wifi :) You can even disable it. It has a nice CPU and Gigabit ports.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:43 pm

Nice replacement for Hex and mAP/mAP Lite in one package !
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 9:13 pm

Im just curious why this device is fourth in AX series... :) How many people will buy it...you should release 4011 AX and audience AX instead of this... :) I only like the USB-C power...you should make it on all new home products...I also like you are updating all of yours HW...I would appreciate some proper small and medium AP and clinets...I can not choose from any...

Disk lite...old procesor and small ram..very ugly device...make somethink as nanobeam ac... small memory
SXT SA very nice device I like it but old HW,,,
Omnitik very nice but old procesor...small memory
mant box is very big for me...old procesor
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Jan 30, 2023 11:14 pm

Already posted something to FCC.. but until the Confidentiality Request evaluation period do not end,
can't be published nothing about the Audience ax C25UiG-5HPaxQD2HPaxD :lol:
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:55 am

I only like the USB-C power...you should make it on all new home products...

IMO USB power is nice for smaller, portable devices. For the rest, I guess power plug form doesn't matter much (and barrel plug is better for higher currents) ... Proper 802.3 af/at/bt support would be much more important for majority of devices / users (support for bt would offer possibility for PoE daisy-chaining). After all, most APs are using ethernet for backhaul connection.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:29 pm

I disagree...few days ago was my network dead because broken power adapter. If there was usbc my network would be online in 5 minutes. USBC can handle much more than few routers needs...
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:52 pm

If your network has a single point of failure with 1 power adapter, you may have other problems waiting to break it down.
What if that device blows up ? Also SPOF ?

Home equipment shouldn't be in the centre of a business network unless you accept it can take everything down without fall-back.
That's a business decision the owner needs to make.
Same with paying an insurance. You take the risk yourself or you pay someone else to take it for you.
Why didn't you have a spare adapter just lying there just in case ? That's insurance.

There is a reason apart from performance why data center equipment is generally quite a bit more expensive. Fallback is usually designed in (or it should be).
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:19 pm

just be wary, this is a USB-C 5V port, so it will not work with USB PD adapters, you need most likely a USB-A 5V adapter and A-to-C cable
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:36 pm

I have very small network..only few devices from Mikrotik including 60Ghz wireless, hap AX2,AX3,AC3,AC2, SXT. I dont have spare parts, but I may buy one more power adapter :)
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:29 pm

just be wary, this is a USB-C 5V port, so it will not work with USB PD adapters, you need most likely a USB-A 5V adapter and A-to-C cable
My apologies but why are you uncertain about this ? "Most likely" can be very wrong.
It has been designed and announced, so you should know for certain what works and what not. No ?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 2:52 pm

My apologies but why are you uncertain about this ? "Most likely" can be very wrong.
It has been designed and announced, so you should know for certain what works and what not. No ?
The USB-C standard is at fault in this case. While I agree, that a PD-compatible Type-C port would have been nice, the standard itself allows for 5V-only, 5V-and-PD, PD-only, and even some more exotic combinations. Heck, even with USB-PD you need to differentiate between 3.0 and 3.1, and/or SPR and EPR. And that's without even starting on the unclear use of logos / pictograms for "compatibility" reasons.

In short USB(-C) is a hot mess. Pretty happy that Mikrotik is actually supporting USB-C 5V input on that device. Means you don't need another wall wart, just use one with multiple outputs for phone, tablet, etc and you're golden.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:25 pm

Yes, I say "most likely" becuse there are all kinds of adapters, and I can't give a simple method to to see which ones will work, like the poster above explains, USB things are not "universal" as the name implies
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:09 pm

2.4Ghz Wi-Fi only.
Datasheet touts an increase in speed of up to 90% within 2.4GHz.
How is that possible ? Using 40 MHz channels ? Which part of WiFi6 enables this ?

An other question: what is a "dual-chain antenna"
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 01, 2023 5:55 pm

Datasheet touts an increase in speed of up to 90% within 2.4GHz.
How is that possible ? Using 40 MHz channels ? Which part of WiFi6 enables this ?
Basically,AX is the first real feature and function improvement since 2009 (802.11n) for the 2,4GHz band.
Some of the biggest improvements:
[*] BSS coordination between AP and client. BSS goes from 0 to 7, and allows the participant to ignore weak interering clients of different BSS IDs, e.g. different networks. Usually, a client will stop transmitting if it detects collisions (remember 802.11 is a shared medium & hidden node problem). While that allows a lot better latency and throughput for ax clients, things will get even worse for b/g/n clients
[*] OFDMA small subchannels within the classic channels that allow for simultaneous transmission to multiple clients. Again, a massive gain in latency and and transmission quality (read: less collisions). Won't really help in a clean-band 1:1 situation though

"Dual Chain Antenna" means 2 independant spatial streams, which means the AP can simultaneously communicate with up to two different devices, theoretically without any collisions.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 01, 2023 7:49 pm

Already 802.11 N specified MIMO up to 4x4, in reality many N devices implement 2x2 MIMO. With 2x2 MIMO it's very hard (next to impossible) to implement MU-MIMO (which, BTW, doesn't increase speed for individual stations, it may increase speed of whole AP and can improve latency as noted by @psannz).

So the big andvantage of ac over n in 2.4GHz comes from addition of higher-order modulations: 256QAM and 1024QAM ... 1024QAM brings those 90%+ of speedup compared to 64QAM. It's worth to note that the high-order modulations will only work in excellent radio conditions. If radio conditions don't allow 95%+ CCQ for 802.11 N, then ax won't be much (if any) faster than N.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:28 pm

From a user perspective:
For me the major plus in AX is not speed (it is there though not 90% :lol: ) but more connectivity (as compared to AC3).
Two really thick brick walls and a concrete floor and still I get acceptable connection.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:22 pm

will be nice to test this hAP ax lite wifi 6 with a client device like ESP32-C6 Wi-Fi 6
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:22 am

It is very bad that the devices have a very narrow power range, unlike other devices Mikrotik.
The photo shows the Hap Lite after the 12 V supply.
photo_2023-02-02_11-00-50.jpg
Installing this module instead of the burnt out one allows you to change the power range to max 15V

@Normis.
The possibility of connecting PWR-LINE via USB -C port remains?

Proposal to release a "USB -PWR-LINE converter" device, with which you can connect Mikrotik with USB power to the computer, thus adding another port to the device. It would be very convenient to connect to a laptop with one usb cable, for example a map lite.
Or in the new line to install a full-fledged USB-C port with a driver to connect the device to the computer.
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:26 am

How you provide 12V to a device that work by USB @ 5V???

And this is the old hAP n lite, nothing to do with hAP ax lite...
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:51 am

How you provide 12V to a device that work by USB @ 5V???
It wasn't me, they brought it in for repair.
But this case is quite common. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF2zbfIyOEs
People are trying to provide backup power to access the Internet, in the absence of electricity
ONU is powered from 12 V, that's the trouble with unskilled users

I am writing in this thread that the "diseases" of the predecessor did not pass to the new device
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:57 am

People are trying to provide backup power to access the Internet, in the absence of electricity
I understand, and I am saddened by it........... 😢
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:42 pm

USB-C port is for power ONLY on hAP ax Lite.
Installing this module instead of the burnt out one allows you to change the power range to max 15V
I imagine this module is not for free? Is the added cost really worth it, instead of educating user to use included power adapter ?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:09 pm

But module in this picture is linear regulator ? Why not switching regulator ? They are not much more expensive than this module.

Voltage diference will be burned in regulator, so if you need 5V and 500 mA, that's 2.5W for router, but if you have 15V at 500 mA then that is 7.5W at the input side, you are burning 5W in this SOT package. That's a lot of wasted power... And heat in this small regulator...

Mikrotik have switching regulators, so they are more efficient and in this picture input is 5V USB so there is no need to have wide input range and probably this regulator is much more efficient. Mikrotik's with barrel jacks have wide input range switching regulators for the same reason.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:54 pm

In our country right now there is a shortage of everything that relates to alternative power supply, you have to use what is available. Of course it is better to use a DC-DC converter.
Among other things, there are difficulties with the purchase of a Hap Lite. Distributor expects delivery to their warehouse on February 14, plus 3-4 days delivery service, have to repair.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:55 pm

Please stick to topic, this is about newly announed hAP ax Lite, which is not shipping yet, and which is compatible with many kinds of USB 5V adapters, as long as they provide enough amps.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 2:17 pm

It's great travel router, can be powered by power bank or can be plugged in car charger. It would be great if you make version with LTE modem perhaps ? or 5G :D with different price point ofc.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:07 pm

Is a different case version planned, like the previous Hap lite version?

We have the Hap lite TC version cheaper because users prefer the classic case.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:05 pm

@normis

What will be the minimum ROS version to support the hap ax lite? In other words, what version will the first batch be shipped with?

Are there plans to support hw offloading vlan-filtering on the MT7531BE switch ASIC? Will other switch features like "port isolation" also be supported? (edit: I just looked at Switch Chip Features and see that the MT7531 is now grouped with the MT7621, so I will assume anything that can be done on the RB750Gr3 or RB760iGS can be done on the hAP ac lite (other than add a 5th device). And the 2.5G link to the CPU should be a performance advantage). (edit2: This page says the MT7531 has 5 Ethernet Phy and two CPU ports (similar to the MT7530 built into the MT7621), which leads to the question as to why the device has only 4 ports, which leave only 3 available after one is used for the internet connection. Cost is probably the reason. Just looking for a replacement for the hEX that supports zerotier and has at least as good of performance.

Edit3. Does the hap ax lite have better bridge performance than the hAP ax² (because of the switch ASIC). The block diagram for the hAP ax² isn't very specific about the "switch" that is integrated with the IPQ-6010 SOC).

Thanks for uploading the block diagram.

P.S. the "manual" still shows CPU @ 1GHz. It was mentioned in the youtube video this typo would be fixed (since it is 800Mhz)

Expansion slots and ports
Product code L41G-2axD
CPU Dual-Core IPQ-5010 1 GHz
CPU architecture ARM 64bit (RouterOS 32bit)

Since this is Arm64 can you confirm that it supports ZeroTier?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:26 pm

specs says
Operating System	RouterOS v7
obviously a new product will not be ported to old software
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:47 pm

Pure logic ?
Wave2 drivers (which AX needs) are not available on ROS6.

My guess is it will be 7.6, maybe already 7.7.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:39 pm

I imagine this module is not for free? Is the added cost really worth it, instead of educating user to use included power adapter ?
I just think "real" USB-C – including data + 12V – would be nice in this class of device. So many use cases for that, even if that comes at slightly higher price than the hAPax-lite.

But it be more useful as a "travel router" if any USB-C thing could power – no need to bring the specific included cable too.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Feb 28, 2023 8:21 pm

If it helps, you can imagine this as a powerful Gigabit Ethernet router with optional wifi :) You can even disable it. It has a nice CPU and Gigabit ports.
Also you get switch chip with bridge vlan filtering (i hope so);) actually in this device I personally do not like only the case .. from travel prospective
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Fri Mar 03, 2023 12:04 pm

Hello,

does hAP AX Lite has IPSec/AES hw acceleration or not?

Thx.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:35 pm

Hello,

does hAP AX Lite has IPSec/AES hw acceleration or not?

Thx.

not

not until now

but, even if that support is announced, dont expect it to be available inmediatly
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:43 pm

Mine is arriving Monday.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 03, 2023 5:43 pm

Got one to toy with.

Pretty impressed with the performance for such a "lite" device.
Personally I would not have made the casing as it is now (simple box form without the frills would have been better, I think. Would fit better in a backpack).
I don't really fancy the greenish side (or whatever that color is) but that's purely personal preference (OTOH makes it a bit harder to miss when looking for it).

For now pretty default config.

Ethernet - ethernet no problems reaching close to Gb speed using iperf3 (950-ish Mpbs, processor hovers around 50% when doing so)

Station mode connecting to nearby AX3 and laptop on ethernet I can reach close to and sometimes just over 400Mbps using iperf3 to local server. Keep in mind, that's using 2GHz Wifi ! :shock:
Processor hovers around 41-43% here.

Nice thing. I will use it as replacement for my road warrior mAP, I think.

One remark: the label with the default password for admin and wifi is STUPIDLY small !! There is plenty of room on that label to print things a bit bigger.
Thank God for x3 zoom mode on my smartphone.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 03, 2023 7:29 pm

Thanks holvoetn, very interesting.
Have you tried wireguard performance as well?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:39 pm

Yup, just did.

Setup:
ISP modem
RB5009 connected to it, that one using VLAN trunk to AX3, that one to NAS with iperf server (already verified using PC to RB5009 I get close to Gb speed on iperf, hence I conclude my internal LAN will not be the bottleneck)
AX Lite connected to ISP modem so no direct connection between RB5009 and AX Lite apart from Wireguard tunnel.
Verified by killing tunnel, no connection anymore to the subnets to be tested.
PC connected to AX Lite

Iperf-results from PC:
TCP: 195 Mbps down, 211Mbps up and CPU on AX Lite maxing out. Profile tool show wireguard, unclassified and networking as the huge performance hogs (wg only 15%, the other 2 around 28-30%).
UDP: 405 Mbps down, 400 Mbps up
remark: bandwith limited on down to 410M and 400M on up because above that, the counter for lost datagrams shoots WAY UP to +50% and more on several runs so useless. With limits applied I usually see 0% loss (not always, most of the times). Using this limit CPU stays around 20% so more then enough spare capacity but it's the network part which kills things here.

If these tests should be done differently to obtain more reliable results, let me know.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:09 am

Has anyone used zerotier with the hap ax lite?

What about vlan-filtering bridge (although with only 4 ports, not as useful as a device with more ports).
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:30 am

I haven't used zerotier, don't believe in it when I can use my own wireguard setups.

4 ports on AX Lite or 5 for AX2 / AX3, that's only 1 port difference ?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:57 am

@holvoetn thanks for your tests.
They seem to me to be excellent performance for the cost of the device.

I bought two :D
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 7:25 am

@normis Can you have someone fix the link in the hap ax lite product page that is pointing to v6 RouterOS documentation?
hAP ax lite RoouterOS software manual link pointing to wrong documentation.png
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 10:20 am

4 ports on AX Lite or 5 for AX2 / AX3, that's only 1 port difference ?

That fifth port amounts to a big difference if you need PoE. The ax² has PoE in and out, while the "lite" has no PoE at all.

Lack of PoE output falls out of the very different powering options between these two: the USB-C input on the "lite" is clever, and it'll make it a great travel router since you've likely got a laptop charger in the bag already, but without a 5 to 48V boost converter, it could never do PoE. The extra components needed to do that doubtless would've added too much cost to keep it "lite."

(There's such a thing as 48V USB PD, but then you couldn't use any random USB-C power brick you had sitting around, nullifying one of this design's advantages.)

Lack of PoE input is less easy to explain. This class of device makes a great router-on-a-stick. PoE isn't essential to that mission, but if you're trying to do this to solve problems with old infrastructure by turning a single Ethernet trunk line into a VLAN-per-port fan-out by adding one of these, you might be running out of power points as well. That might push you to the ax² all by itself.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:39 am

Having POE (in or out) or 1 port more (4 i.s.o. 5) is not related to the original remark made by Buckeye.
Completely different topic.

On AX devices (the ones I have seen: AX2 and AX3) POE in and out are on the same port now. And that's something I don't really understand.
I can get it from a cost/design point of view but functionally ... not so much. I much preferred how it was on AC2/AC3 (in on eth1, out on eth5).
I understood however for ISP purposes it might be better this way. Alas, nothing we can change about that.

I see AX Lite in the same category as mAP and mAP lite.
mAP also has POE out but personally, I have never used it (except once for a quick lab-setup with cap).
mAP Lite I have powered more then enough using that POE option so that was indeed an added value there. But having USB-C as power-input on AXLite makes it not that much of a problem nowadays.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:48 am

I understood however for ISP purposes it might be better this way.
For curiosity's sake, why ?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:15 pm

viewtopic.php?t=189397
Posts 64.

For a lot of ISP devices it might require POE feeding, so the same cable as the one connected to eth1 = powering ISP device AND is configured as Internet In.
 
holvoetn
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 12:52 pm

Yes, I must have mistaken this thread as about "hAP ax lite", its limitations, and its usages, and not a private conversation between you two. There is no possibility that someone might have found my observation interesting or helpful.
I'm not sure I understand why you react this way ...

There is no problem with the comment you made w.r.t. POE (not at all ! It is a very valid comment), it is however not related to the quote you used and the context of that part of the conversation where you pulled it from.
Hence my remark.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:31 pm

DELETED
Last edited by tangent on Tue Apr 18, 2023 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:32 pm

On AX devices (the ones I have seen: AX2 and AX3) POE in and out are on the same port now. And that's something I don't really understand.
I can get it from a cost/design point of view but functionally ... not so much.

If 802.3 PoE is supported by Mikrotik devices, they support either af or at variants. 802.3af goes up to 15.4W (at PSE, less than that on PD depending on power losses on UTP cable) and 802.3at goes up to 30W (same considerations apply). If PSE is 802.3at, then device could support one 802.3af client (if we take away own device consumption) and even then it could violate 802.3 standard regarding output voltage (device doesn't regulate voltage and if voltage drop between original PSE and device is high, it would fall out of standard range (which is at least 42V on PoE out port).

Now, hAP ax2 and hAP ax3 only support passive PoE with input range of 18-28V. Both have PoE out current limitation at around 0.6A (0.625A for hAP ax3) and that happens to be in line of many Mikrotik PoE out devices. I've yet to see Mikrotik document which would mention PoE in maximum current, but given that at least in this case PoE in both directions shares same port, I think it's safe to assume that PoE in current should likely stay below 1A (long term) to be on safe side (not to cook some sensitive element of ethernet port).

Now, most passive PoE devices come with 24V power brick (and the two devices mentioned even can't take higher voltage), which means something around 24W of total power consumption. hAP ax2 is rated at 12W and hAP ax3 is rated at 15W.

Which leaves pretty small power budget for PoE out when device is powered via PoE in (true both in passive and IEE 802.3 PoE cases). And that is, I strongly believe, rationale behind making one port a PoE in/out combo.

[edit] fixed af vs at in first paragraph.
Last edited by mkx on Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
holvoetn
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Re: hAP ax lite

Mon Apr 17, 2023 2:44 pm

You've treated me like I'm an intruder to your private conversation, when all I was doing was riffing on a point you made.
That was definitely not the intention.
If that was the impression you got from my response, then there is a nuance I missed (English is not my native language).
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:36 am

My point about having 4 vs 5 ports on a vlan-aware switch was that with 5 ports, you can have internet on one port, and two "two port switches", where ports 2 and 3 on vlan x ports 4 and 5 on vlan y. That can be useful if you have dumb switches connected to ports 3 and 4 both going different areas e.g. guest/iot on one switch and home on the other, which still having convenient access to each of the two vlans at the router itself. Of course that "problem" can be solved with an extra vlan aware switch near the router.

It would have been nice if it could have been at least powered by PoE, but then what type? It would be most useful if it coule be powered by 24V passive as well as standard 802.3af, but that probably would have changed the price point and perhaps there would have been sourcing issues on some parts as well.

I am surprised that no one has been able to confirm whether the hap ac lite will work with zerotier, and if so, how it performs.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:14 am

I am surprised that no one has been able to confirm whether the hap ac lite will work with zerotier, and if so, how it performs.
If you point me to a cookie-cutter setup guide, I'm willing to try :lol:
(again: haven't spend much time on it since I do not believe (yet) in that route since I have more confidence in my own wireguard setups for my purposes. But always eager to learn ...who knows ...)
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:48 am

Not quite cookie cutter, but there is a link to a normis video in it.

https://help.mikrotik.com/docs/display/ROS/ZeroTier

Here's a The Network Berg video Testing out the Ethernet Switch of the Planet! ZeroTier ft. MikroTik! This is relatively old Dec 2, 2021.

Official ZeroTeir Docs
https://docs.zerotier.com/zerotier/manual
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:38 am

FWIW I hate video tutorials ... takes way too much time for what's needed ! Clean and precise instructions are much faster.

Already had a look at Help pages. I don't seem to get a connection between phone and AX Lite.
Good instructions ... NOT! :shock:

I will have a look later today.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 9:50 am

Looks like you are not good with text based instructions either :D
Watch the video then, maybe there you will not miss a crucial step
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:02 am

Oh make no mistake, I am very good with text instructions, if they are complete...
Will watch your video later today and indicate where the text instructions are lacking.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:50 am

FWIW I hate video tutorials ... takes way too much time for what's needed ! Clean and precise instructions are much faster.

Concur! And the MT docs are IMO also extremely overcomplicated and imprecise for something as simple as ZeroTier.

In essence:

1. Obtain a network ID by registering a network in ZeroTier Central (my.zerotier.com) which is used to install all ZT clients including mt devices. It's free up to 25 devices.
2. Enable the ZeroTier "instance". Defaults will do.
3. Enable the ZeroTier "interface" and specify network (ie network ID from #1) and name of the interace.
--

The ZeroTier interface name will now appear under the regular "Interfaces" menu and you can treat it like any local Ethernet interface and for example add it to the "Interface List" LAN, etc. Each node that is added to the network must be approved using the ZeroTier Central (my.zerotier.com) before it can be used.

When you create a new network ZeroTier Central autmatically picks a subnet that can be changed anytime. Btw, it's also extremely easy to configure multiple site-to-site (mesh) networks just by adding the subnets to Managed Routes in ZeroTier Central.

EDIT
I've added "ZeroTier - a quick HOW-TO" to useful articles. Comments are welcome.
Last edited by Larsa on Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 12:56 pm

Setting up routing for internal LAN was a bit problematic (there is the lacking part of the instructions) so took the shortcut and added ZT also to RB5009 (which acts as main router on my network).
I have a 300/30 line.

Added drop rule to make sure there was no direct connection from AX to RB using internal routing (only way is via ZT).
tool/speedtest from AX Lite to RB5009 via ZT (watched interfaces on both devices to verify traffic was effectively going over that path)
1 CPU core was close to maxing out so there's the bottle neck IMHO.

2023-04-18_11-29-52.jpg
As a reference, also added PC to ZT network.
iperf3 test from PC to RB5009 yielded 160Mbps.

CONCLUSION: Wireguard RULES!!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:14 pm

Performance-wise, unfortunately yes, since ZeroTier AFAIK is still single threaded and also depends on hardware optimization for AES which hasn't been implemented by mt (as of yet?). Wireguard uses ChaCha which is much nicer as a software encryption and better suited if you are looking for speed on low end devices like hAP ax lite (peformanace equal to a Raspberry PI 3). On hardware that suppors AES offloading you willl get close to wirespeed where wg likely hogs the cpu.

From an administrative perspective then zt outrules wg but tailscale is a good candidate if you want both although zt offers more fine grained control.
Last edited by Larsa on Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:53 pm, edited 4 times in total.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:39 pm

Btw, it's also extremely easy to configure multiple site-to-site (mesh) networks just by adding the subnets to Managed Routes in ZeroTier Central.
And THAT part did no fly for me. Hence my reason to take the shortcut in my testing case.
Maybe I need to start with a clean config to see where it goes wrong.
Or maybe not (conceptually my head is more wired to wireguard then zerotier. Also I STILL don't trust going via servers I do not control. The same reason I will not use an external VPN service).
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:28 pm

You can easily install and run your own controller. Check out additional info #6 in "ZeroTier - A Quick HOW-TO"
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 3:52 pm

True but then you need to jump through additional hoops for setting up your own controller web interface, container, etc etc.

I'll stick to wireguard, thankyouverymuch :lol:
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:13 pm

Well, wg ain't too bad either! ;-)

Currently we use it a lot on devices that don't support zt but are in the process of replacing wg with separate OOB devices running zt in order to consolidate and simplify operations of our mgmt network. L2 is a big advantage in this case.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:50 pm

I understand there are use cases for zerotier, definitely so.
Just not for me.
Big advantage I see with WG is it runs without any issues on ALL MT devices capable of running ROS7. Even a simple mAP Lite.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:27 pm

Thanks @holvoetn for taking the time to test on the hap ax lite, especially since you don't intend to use it yourself.

Thanks @Larsa for your ZeroTier - a quick HOW-TO and for the link to @Amm0's ZeroTier on Mikrotik – a rosetta stone [v7.1.1+]

Thanks to @Amm0 for the ZeroTier on Mikrotik – a rosetta stone [v7.1.1+]

It seems that ZeroTier is maybe a bit faster than OpenVPN but behind ipsec and wireguard in performance.

This is my understanding, but it could be wrong. ZeroTier is a layer 2 solution (and takes care of fragmentation of ethernet frames itself). I think it can be bridged with a local segment to make other devices "appear" local. It also has the ability to limit what else can connect. It is peer-to-peer, and the only thing the "planet" does it to relay into to the nodes to prime the peer-to-peer communication using udp hole punching. If something is preventing peer-to-peer traffic it can also relay encrypted traffic (at low data rate, with high latency). If you don't want to use the zerotier infastructure, you can evidently set up your own "moons", but most people will not want to do this.
Last edited by Buckeye on Sun Mar 31, 2024 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:42 pm

True but then you need to jump through additional hoops for setting up your own controller web interface, container, etc etc.

I'll stick to wireguard, thankyouverymuch :lol:

X2 !!!
i agree with you

there is too much hype with ZT, for those who want to use it fine, but for some people sometimes its like we had the obligation to abandon all other way to do VPN and going to ZT
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:06 pm

FWIW, ZeroTier and many other similar SD-WAN solutions are definitely not "hyped" but rather a natural evolution for simplifying large-scale (ie >10 networks) VPN deplyment and operations. Wireguard is a P2P VPN protocol. Both have their specific use cases where they are best suited.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu May 11, 2023 10:59 pm

7.10beta5: ipsec - added hardware acceleration support for IPQ-5010 (hAP ax lite) :D

@holvoetn
If you are bored and don't know what to do... can you do a performance test?
:D
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu May 11, 2023 11:01 pm

Pfff ... then I need to review how to setup IPSEC connections for proper testing ...
I'll put it on a someday/maybe list :)
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu May 11, 2023 11:13 pm

Thank you :D
Hope mine arrives soon...
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu May 11, 2023 11:17 pm

The release notes are pretty slim on WHAT exactly will be HW offloaded.
So I think I'll need to look at IPQ6010 (AX3/AX2). It will not be more, I guess.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue May 30, 2023 11:29 pm

<disclaimer: Didn't have time yet to test IPSEC part ...>
FWIW, ZeroTier and many other similar SD-WAN solutions are definitely not "hyped" but rather a natural evolution for simplifying large-scale (ie >10 networks) VPN deplyment and operations. Wireguard is a P2P VPN protocol. Both have their specific use cases where they are best suited.
One thing I WILL admit which is pretty cool ... ROMON to a Tik device with AX Lite also being in the same network, connected via ZT to home and voila ! All home devices also visible in Romon Neighbors. Already used that a couple of times to my favor.
With Wireguard you can't do that unless you also add some sort of EOIP tunnel or so on top. Which is not that easy to do everywhere...
So a point for ZT there !
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:42 pm

7.10beta5: ipsec - added hardware acceleration support for IPQ-5010 (hAP ax lite) :D

@holvoetn
If you are bored and don't know what to do... can you do a performance test?
:D
Dear friends,
Is there any information regarding ipsec hw acceleration for this device?
Thanks.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:37 pm

FINALLY was able to do some testing.

Basic IPSEC connection from AX Lite to RB5009 (AX Lite -> ISP Router acting as local switch -> RB5009 so all Gigabit connections).
Both devices on 7.11b6
Used iperf from PC connected to AX lite to iperf container on RB5009.

Max I saw was 58 to 65 Mbps (did several tests).
CPU on AX Lite went to 76% (1 core to 85% so not yet maxing out).
RB5009 never went over 17%.

Better then zerotier (because of HW offloading ?) but way below wireguard. Still a huge difference though ...
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sun Jul 23, 2023 2:01 am

FINALLY was able to do some testing.

Basic IPSEC connection from AX Lite to RB5009 (AX Lite -> ISP Router acting as local switch -> RB5009 so all Gigabit connections).
Both devices on 7.11b6
Used iperf from PC connected to AX lite to iperf container on RB5009.

Max I saw was 58 to 65 Mbps (did several tests).
CPU on AX Lite went to 76% (1 core to 85% so not yet maxing out).
RB5009 never went over 17%.

Better then zerotier (because of HW offloading ?) but way below wireguard. Still a huge difference though ...
58 to 65 Mbps out of 1000Mbps..? Or 58Mb/s, being about 500Mbps out of 1gbps?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sun Jul 23, 2023 7:26 am

Both connections from RB5009 and AX lite towards isp modem were 1gbps.
Didn't do a test over that path without any vpn/encryption but pretty sure it would behave as a 1gbps connection as a normal Lan would.

On that latest test, I assume the IPSEC HW offloading is the bottle neck since CPU wasn't maxing out on any of the cores.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:19 pm

7.10beta5: ipsec - added hardware acceleration support for IPQ-5010 (hAP ax lite) :D
What key size and encryption fit for HW offload?

UP. Got 25 Mbit with AES256-CBC (SHA256) (HW offload) and 60 Mbit with chacha20 (software encryption)

UP2. What about CPU auto speed? Now clocked at 800 MHz all time, not so good for small road warrior on power bank
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:19 pm

Is it possible to wall mount hap ax lite?
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:22 pm

Nope.
Slightly outward rounded feet on the bottom of the case.

Unless you start cutting some pieces and foresee some external mounting mechanism, can't be done.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:29 pm

Is it possible to wall mount hap ax lite?

Yes, if you use enough Liquid Nails.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Jan 04, 2024 3:58 pm

Is a different case version planned, like the previous Hap lite version?

We have the Hap lite TC version cheaper because users prefer the classic case.
asking again: is there a plan to launch hap ax lite in classic case? I don't dare to buy this weird upright/tower device. I do already have a hap lite classic and I'd like to upgrade.
 
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Re: hAP ax lite

Thu Jan 04, 2024 4:34 pm

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