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ffries
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Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:02 am

Dear all,

I am presently running a Mikrotik crs312-4c-8xg-rm 10Gb switch.
It is a very good switch except that it is sitting in my living-room and making a lot of noise.

I am also running a CRS2004 router with passive cooling. Fans are present, but never running.

So I would like to change and buy a comparable switch, but completely fanless.
Is the CRS317-1G-16S+RM the only suitable solution in my case?
https://mikrotik.com/product/crs317_1g_16s_rm

The CRS317-1G-16S+RM is not purely fanless as I can see two fans:
Image

Image

Do you confirm fans are never running in a normal situation when hardware acceleration is used?

Kind regards,
FF
Last edited by ffries on Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mbovenka
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:01 pm

If you can get by with 8 10G ports, the CRS309 is fanless.
 
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Cha0s
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:02 pm

As per product page:
The unit has dual redundant power supplies and passive cooling case - for hot environments two redundant fans will automatically keep the system cool if needed.
I use these in a datacenter environment and I can see in LibreNMS, that the fans have never spun up.
Screenshot_8.png
The datacenter ambient temperature is 22-24 degrees.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:13 pm

What is the FAN rpm ? Have you checked ?
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:59 pm

Perfect, thanks, this is what I need.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:16 pm

CCR 2004 does not have a passive cooling, it has 2 FANs, that is why i was wondering what is the RPM on your CRS so it becomes so noisy as you stated...
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 3:40 pm

CCR 2004 does not have a passive cooling, it has 2 FANs, that is why i was wondering what is the RPM on your CRS so it becomes so noisy as you stated...
From my understanding, the CPU in the 2004 is cooled by the passive/external heatsink

the fans are there to provide airflow to the optical interfaces, and should operate based on the highest inserted modlue temperature.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:50 pm

CCR 2004 does not have a passive cooling, it has 2 FANs, that is why i was wondering what is the RPM on your CRS so it becomes so noisy as you stated...
From my understanding, the CPU in the 2004 is cooled by the passive/external heatsink

the fans are there to provide airflow to the optical interfaces, and should operate based on the highest inserted modlue temperature.
A device with no Fans has Passive Cooling System...
A device with Fans has an Active Cooling System...

So since both CCR2004 and CRS312 have Fans, the cooling is not Passive.

CRS326 for example that has no Fans, if you see the specs it is stated that the cooling is passive https://mikrotik.com/product/CRS326-24G ... ifications
If you check the CRS312 and CCR2004, you will see it has a Fan cooling...
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:43 pm

Thanks. I am comparing with the CRS2004 because it has a nice cooler on the back and it really runs silently.

Currently, the crs312-4c-8xg-rm fans are running low:
[xxxxxxx@crs312-4c-8xg-rm] /system/health/settings> /system/health print
Columns: NAME, VALUE, TYPE
# NAME VALUE TYPE
0 temperature 40 C
1 cpu-temperature 50 C
2 sfp-temperature 40 C
3 phy-temperature 58 C
4 fan1-speed 4095 RPM
5 fan2-speed 3780 RPM
6 fan3-speed 3930 RPM
7 fan4-speed 3825 RPM
8 psu1-state ok
9 psu2-state ok


But it can blow at high speed at any moment.
CPU and Phy temperatures are too hot.
CPU utilization is only 2 or 3%.

By the way I am running RouterOS latest 7rc.

I suspect it has to do with system architecture. ARM Is always a better choice. I want to get rid of the crs312-4c-8xg-rm ...

I am open to any solution to set RPM to zero.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:01 am

My living-room sounds like a plane landing-off :
$ system health print
Columns: NAME, VALUE, TYPE
# NAME VALUE TYPE
0 temperature 40 C
1 cpu-temperature 49 C
2 sfp-temperature 40 C
3 phy-temperature 56 C
4 fan1-speed 6465 RPM
5 fan2-speed 6060 RPM
6 fan3-speed 6285 RPM
7 fan4-speed 6165 RPM
8 psu1-state ok
9 psu2-state ok
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration

Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:30 pm

As a comparision, on the CCR2004:
@CCR2004-1G-12S-2XS] /system/health> print
Columns: NAME, VALUE, TYPE
# NAME VALUE TYPE
0 temperature 65 C
1 cpu-temperature 47 C
2 sfp-temperature 65 C
3 switch-temperature 49 C
4 fan1-speed 0 RPM
5 fan2-speed 0 RPM
6 board-temperature1 44 C
7 board-temperature2 40 C
8 psu1-state ok
9 psu2-state ok
Temperature is comparable, fans are not spinning.
Thank you ARM, this is my point of view.

I am dumping the crs312-4c-8xg-rm on Tuesday morning, unless technical support answers my support questions.
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Mon Nov 29, 2021 8:54 pm

I trashed the Mikrotik crs312-4c-8xg-rm and purchased a Mikrotik ARM switch.
This is way more expansive, but I hope that it will fix fan noise issue.

Of course I don't recommend buying the Mikrotik crs312-4c-8xg-rm for home use,
unless it is sitting in an isolated lobby, in the garage or in a server room.

I am closing Mikotik support ticket as Mikrotik engineers probably cannot fix this issue (and probably don't care).

So the issue is fixed and closed.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:28 am

What Model did you choose now ?
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:09 pm

Sorry for my late answer:
I purchased a CRS317-1G-16S+RM
Dual ARM cpu, 16 SFP+ cages, fully accelerated.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Thu Dec 02, 2021 8:32 pm

Sorry for my late answer:
I purchased a CRS317-1G-16S+RM
Dual ARM cpu, 16 SFP+ cages, fully accelerated.
Its not fanless though ...
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:37 pm

On the CCR2004 fans are running idle with those values:
0 temperature 65 C
1 cpu-temperature 47 C
2 sfp-temperature 65 C

Like the CCR2004 but I am confident that fans will remain idle.
I think the switch problem is the non-ARM CPU which needs cooling.

I will report back on Saturday, stay tuned.
 
Zacharias
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Fri Dec 03, 2021 10:50 am

On the CCR2004 fans are running idle with those values:
0 temperature 65 C
1 cpu-temperature 47 C
2 sfp-temperature 65 C

Like the CCR2004 but I am confident that fans will remain idle.
I think the switch problem is the non-ARM CPU which needs cooling.

I will report back on Saturday, stay tuned.
Sure, waiting for your news...
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:47 pm

The CRS317-1G-16S+ arrived today.
The fans are spinning very fast because of SFP+ temperature (around 77°).
I need to check what is going on ... or I will ship it back.

[admin@CRS317-1G-16S+] /system/health> print
Columns: NAME, VALUE, TYPE
# NAME VALUE TYPE
0 temperature 77 C
1 cpu-temperature 41 C
2 sfp-temperature 77 C
3 fan1-speed 7785 RPM
4 fan2-speed 7785 RPM
5 psu1-state ok
6 psu2-state ok
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:51 pm

Temperature of CRS317-1G-16S+] SFP+ connectors are:

* fiber : 39 C
* 10Gb : 76 C
* 1G: 72 C

Stating Mikrotik documentation:
CPU and SFP temperature

If CPU or SFP temperatures exceed 58C, the fans will start to spin. The higher the temperature, the faster the fans will spin. For devices with PWM fans, as the CPU or SFP temperatures exceed 58C, the fans will linearly increase their RPM to try to keep the temperature at 58C if possible. For devices with DC fans, as the CPU or SFP temperatures exceed 58C, the fans will start spinning but at a higher minimum RPM by default. This may result in cooling the device to the point where the fans turn-off completely. After which the temperature may slowly increase to 58C and the fans will turn on again. Currently, there is one exception. The S+RJ10 modules have a temperature threshold of 65C before they trigger the fans. Since it's a higher temperature threshold, the fans will start spinning at a higher initial speed to cool the device.
The switch will never run silently ...
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:01 am

From my understanding, if I want fans to stop spinning, I need
* A small fanless 1G swith (my old L2/L3 switch). All 1Gb RJ-45 connectors should go there.
* A 10Gb switch with only fiber SFP+ modules.
linked using two SFP connectors with LACP.

End of the story I hope.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:01 am

In that case, my fanless setup is:

CRS309 (8 x SFP+, 1 x GbE RJ45)
CSS610 (2 x SFP+, 8 x GbE RJ45)

Connected via a single SFP+ <--> SFP+ connection. One could use a SFP+ DAC instead.

If more fanless RJ45 ports are wanted, the CSS610 can be replaced with either the CSS326-2S+ or either CRS326-2S+ variant.

If fewer SFP+ ports are wanted, one could just use the CSS610, CSS326-2S+, or CRS326-2S+. Each comes with 2 SFP+ ports, after all. One could also downgrade the CRS309 to a CRS305 (4 x SFP+, 1 x GbE RJ45)..

All of the suggested switches here are completely fanless. There are other Mikrotik fanless switches with SFP+, but I only suggested the ones that I feel are most relevant.
RouterOS Switches:
CRS309 (8 x SFP+, 1 x GbE RJ45)
CRS305 (4 x SFP+, 1 x GbE RJ45)
CRS326-24G-2S+ (2 x SFP+, 24 x GbE RJ45), -RM and -IN are the rackmount and desktop versions, respectively

SwitchOS Switch:
CSS326-24G-2S+ (2 x SFP+, 24 x GbE RJ45)

SwitchOS Lite Switch:
CSS610 (2 x SFP+, 8 x GbE RJ45)
Last edited by glow on Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:25 pm

To describe the situation, the switch is running with:
* 2 S+RJ10 (10Gbit/s copper)
* 8 S-RJ01 (1Gbit/s copper)
* 2 SFP+ fiber modules

All are very cool around 30°C, except the 2 S+RJ10 10gbit/s, which are 70°C.
The S-RJ01 are not reporting any temperature, but are very cool.

So the sole reason why the fans are spinning at 7500RPM is the 10Gb/s copper.
This is insane.

Is there a way to fix this?
If there is no solution I will buy a CRS309-1G-8S and link it to a 1GB switch.
 
ffries
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:56 pm

I purchased a CRS309-1G-8S, end of the story.

I will link it to a fanless L2/L3 switch with 2 SFP fiber connectors (LACP link aggregation).
Should work like a charm ...

Thank you all for your comments.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:04 pm

CRS309 + CRS326 (-PC) here. Both fanless and you have 10Gb SFP+ interfaces… you can do LACP also.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:09 pm

It seems that all 10Gbps RJ45 SFPs consume relatively a lot of energy and thus run pretty hot. And they still have to remain under certain temperature threshold. For optical SFPs maximum environmental temperature is around 70°C, industrial temperature rating increases that to 80°C. And by environnent temperature it's the SFP casing because that's the environment to which SFP dissipates energy. So it's only the right thing that switch/router tries to keep SFP case temperature below 70°C. In case of fanless designs, cooling of SFP+ RJ modules can be inadequate and can overheat and consequently malfunction.

We can agree that it would probably be possible to improve cooling of SFP cases with some advanced temperature engineering ... but MT did what they did and we'll have to live with that.

That said it seems that it's only possible to have truly silent 10Gbps switch if ports are RJ45 and not SFP ... because MII chips can be directly coupled with massive heat sinks ... the closest Mikrotik offering is CRS312-4C+8XG-RM with 8x to 12x 10Gbps RJ45 (4 ports are combo RJ45 / SFP+). Doesn't seem to be fanless design though. If you need silent operations, then generally your only alternative is to settle for 1Gbps connections.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:02 am

Thank you for clarification.
Last edited by ffries on Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:24 am

In our datacenters we run dac cables to save energy instead of rj45 plugs that consumes a lot of power. Passive dacs use less than 0.15 watts. Singlemode short range uses around 1 watt and rj45 10gbe uses up 5 watts.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:56 pm

Thanks for clarification.

I purchased a MikroTik CRS326-24G-2S+in and a MikroTik CRS309-1G-8S+in linked with 10Gb fiber.
Tomorrow, I will ship back all other routers.
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:59 am

First of all, many thanks for your help (I could not make it alone).

I can report that the MikroTik CRS309-1G-8S+in is now operating fanless.
I guess "+in" in product name means home use but it is also rackable.

I returned all other hardware (and saved quit a bunch of money).
i will also sell my Mikrotik crs312-4c-8xg-rm on the second hand market.

The only issue is that the 10Gb copper SFP+ modules are getting hot, around 92°C.
The DAC cable runs very cool but does not report any temperature.
The fiber SFP+ are around 40°C.

The switch CPU is only 30°C in operation.

To describe my needs, I live in a building made of concrete and WIFI is very bad.
So I connect with copper wires and this makes a lot of wires which I will replace with fiber.

Copper wires are too thick and only fiber can coexist with electric wires.
On the long run, I plan to remove all copper.

KInd regards,
FF
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Wed Dec 08, 2021 12:41 pm

 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Wed Dec 08, 2021 3:07 pm

+IN replaces the old +PC label, but I thought the CRS326 +IN lacked rackmount ears?
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sat Dec 11, 2021 1:07 pm

+IN replaces the old +PC label, but I thought the CRS326 +IN lacked rackmount ears?
I don't use the IN version, but according to the products page no ears are included. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs326_24g ... ifications
And i don't think that rack mount ears can be placed in that model...
 
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Re: Truely fanless 10Gb switch with routerOS + hardware accceleration [Fixed]

Sat Dec 25, 2021 4:19 pm

Thanks a lot for all the information.

I purchased the two fanless switches and sold the other.
My home room is now completely silent.
I use two passive DAC to link them with LACP.

The only issue is that sometimes the 10Gb copper connector goes beyond 92° and gets disconnected.
So I am planning to replace it with fiber or DAC only.

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