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mikruser
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Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:04 pm

Hello,
Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?
Dual-core Skylake can handle 10Gbit/s aes-gcm ipsec tunnel (CCR cannot).
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:00 pm

Have you checked Cloud Host Router ? http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:CHR
Real admins use real keyboards.
To quote or not to quote, there is the topic: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=168474
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 9:46 pm

CHR is OS for virtual machine.
My question about hardware router in 1U rackmount formfactor
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:17 pm

http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=112
with ESXi and CHR.

Works perfectly.
David Joyce
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Intrus Technologies, LLC.
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:19 pm

Hello,
Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?
Dual-core Skylake can handle 10Gbit/s aes-gcm ipsec tunnel (CCR cannot).
YUP - That's been my beef for several years now.
Please don't get me wrong, but I feel Mikrotik uses whimpy / slow / weak / underpowered CPUs in most of their motherboards.
- I have not found a Mikrotik product that can route and/or firewall and/or bridge and/or NAT and/or VPN and/or Tunnel EoIP all ports at the same time.
- Even on a simple less than 10 k NV2 WDS AC mimo link, it is impossible to get much above 400 meg wireless throughput without driving the CPU up above 50 percent or much higher.
- A simple test to check if your router is under-powered. Multiply the number of Ethernet ports you have by the maximum speed of each port then multiply this number by 2 (the 2 is for full duplex) then add the maximum speeds of your wireless - now you have a speed your CPU needs to be able to handle. Now perform a speedtest to your loopback 127.0.0.1 using the tools-bandwidth test with UDP/both. You will quickly discover you are not even be close to being able to route at network speed to all ports. Example - lets say a board has 3 gig Ethernet ports and a 3x3 mimo NV2 wireless card - your math should result somewhere higher than 7 gig. A btest to the 127.0.0.1 loopback will not even come close to the calculated throughput needed.

Another example of a seriously underpowered motherboard... Lets say you need a two port 10-gig Ethernet router/firewall device. A two port 10-gig per port router should able to layer 3 process up to 40 gig per second. A btest to 127.0.0.1 on a mikrotik anything motherboard will not even come close to the maximum L3 speeds you may need.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:59 pm

http://www.mini-itx.com/store/?c=112
with ESXi and CHR.

Works perfectly.
Hey IntrusDave,
I assume CHR can't talk directly to wireless cards (NV2) (and no CD ISO to boot/install from). Have you had the opportunity to test x86 32-bit ROS with any Mikrotik wirless cards ? I am especially interested in trying to find a solution to handle WDS NV2 mimo 3x3 AC microwave links at the upper throughput limits of what the wireless protocol speeds are supposed to support. I am aiming for near 1-gig wireless throughput - the best I can get right now is just over 500 meg peak on MT anything before the MT CPU starts a melt-down.

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:21 pm

I've never tried any wireless on the CHR or x86 RouterOS. You can look in the hardware list to find out what is supported
David Joyce
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:43 pm

@TomjNorthIdaho Your test method is flawed on multicore systems because BW test works on single core.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 07, 2016 6:00 pm

@TomjNorthIdaho Your test method is flawed on multicore systems because BW test works on single core.
Yea I will agree - I may be very flawed.

Is it safe to assume that a captive-portal configuration with bandwidth limits on some interfaces to some customers while routing & firewalling & natting & bridging all use multi-core if multi-cores are available ?

A basic configuration I use here at my ISP utilizes a 10-gig internet upstream connection where my local core routers use multiple 10-gig routed interfaces with around 100 Vlans to different customer home/business networks where each customer has unique up/down bandwidths anywhere from 10-meg up to 5 gig accounts - and all accounts use firewalls to filter/block all RFC-1918 traffic and a few other firewall rules to prevent IP spoofing. Is this something a CHR should be able to reliably work with ?
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:27 pm

If host hardware is powerful enough then CHR should handle your mentioned configuration.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:29 pm

What about using Ryzen? It has incredible crypto performance:
Image
Image
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:46 pm

How fast is a Ryzen processor board compared to a Xeon processor board compared to a CHR for 10-Gig core routing/bridging/FireWall/NAT/Vlan/Simple-Queue functions - a high-throughput busy ISP environment with 1,000 or greater customers? It would be interesting to find out (cost of performance vs flat-out-performance).

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:43 pm

CHR is OS for virtual machine.
My question about hardware router in 1U rackmount formfactor

as far as i understand mikrotik had take the virtualization path on x86 to avoid dealing with the variety of hardware available on x86 platforms, integrating drivers and certifying hardware working with routeros.

using virtualization that task is taken by hypervisor developer keeping routeros image as light as it has always been

in the near future virtualization features are closing the gap on latency making it perfect for networking implementations

taking this in count i think the virtualization path is the smartest one to board x86 platforms
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:59 pm

CHR is OS for virtual machine.
My question about hardware router in 1U rackmount formfactor

as far as i understand mikrotik had take the virtualization path on x86 to avoid dealing with the variety of hardware available on x86 platforms, integrating drivers and certifying hardware working with routeros.

using virtualization that task is taken by hypervisor developer keeping routeros image as light as it has always been

in the near future virtualization features are closing the gap on latency making it perfect for networking implementations

taking this in count i think the virtualization path is the smartest one to board x86 platforms
I use virtual machines for everything (VMware ESXi) . Management, maintenance, full-image-backup/full-image-recovery and tuning throughput is so much easier. And a big positive feature is that one physical computer can host many independent/isolated virtual machines with many different operating systems on many different networks at the same time and all virtual machines can share isolated HDD file systems on the same local physical hard disk or network NAS system(s).
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Sun May 21, 2017 2:37 pm

How fast is a Ryzen processor board compared to a Xeon processor board compared to a CHR for 10-Gig core routing/bridging/FireWall/NAT/Vlan/Simple-Queue functions - a high-throughput busy ISP environment with 1,000 or greater customers? It would be interesting to find out (cost of performance vs flat-out-performance).

North Idaho Tom Jones
i would liket to know that too.

what is the performance of Ryzen processor board with 10G port.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon May 22, 2017 12:32 am

How fast is a Ryzen processor board compared to a Xeon processor board compared to a CHR for 10-Gig core routing/bridging/FireWall/NAT/Vlan/Simple-Queue functions - a high-throughput busy ISP environment with 1,000 or greater customers? It would be interesting to find out (cost of performance vs flat-out-performance).

North Idaho Tom Jones
i would liket to know that too.

what is the performance of Ryzen processor board with 10G port.

very hard to know

testing at 10gigagit ethernet speeds is very complicated and require a lot of equipment

plus simulate 1000's customer real behavior makes this more difficult

I think is very difficult to predict the performance because each configuration and scenario is different

Because that mikrotik test equipment using the same configs and scenario to stablish a comparison, then you have to translate that comparison to your specific scenario known results

with x86 hardware the comparison goes beyond cpu and ram configuration, because the system parts selection can lead to bottlenecks making the same cpu ram combination to perform different.

I think the main topic assembling an x86 machine for networking is getting the NICS on the CPU direct pci express lanes to avoid bottlenecks, dont use NICs connected to motherboard chipset oversubscribed and slower pci express lanes
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon May 22, 2017 4:00 am

How fast is a Ryzen processor board compared to a Xeon processor board compared to a CHR for 10-Gig core routing/bridging/FireWall/NAT/Vlan/Simple-Queue functions - a high-throughput busy ISP environment with 1,000 or greater customers? It would be interesting to find out (cost of performance vs flat-out-performance).

North Idaho Tom Jones
i would liket to know that too.

what is the performance of Ryzen processor board with 10G port.

very hard to know

testing at 10gigagit ethernet speeds is very complicated and require a lot of equipment

plus simulate 1000's customer real behavior makes this more difficult

I think is very difficult to predict the performance because each configuration and scenario is different

Because that mikrotik test equipment using the same configs and scenario to stablish a comparison, then you have to translate that comparison to your specific scenario known results

with x86 hardware the comparison goes beyond cpu and ram configuration, because the system parts selection can lead to bottlenecks making the same cpu ram combination to perform different.

I think the main topic assembling an x86 machine for networking is getting the NICS on the CPU direct pci express lanes to avoid bottlenecks, dont use NICs connected to motherboard chipset oversubscribed and slower pci express lanes
yes you are right. our environment like this: we have over 5,000 users connected our network we are checking every ones ip with our firewall rules. We have E5-2670 and our total cpu usage is 15% when we have over 4K active user connected our network. Our only problem is that we experience 100% cpu load when we get attack by one ip. So we need better cpu performance. Btw, we get spoof attacks with thousands ips but no cpu load then it is strange only one ip saturate all our network.

We are thinking to buy CCR1072-1G-8S+ or build our x86 machine. we can test i7770k mikrotik performence w/o buying CCR1072 if it suits we will countinue.

i7700k with intel x520 nic is it good combination ?
What would you recommend us ?
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed May 24, 2017 9:10 am

We are thinking to buy CCR1072-1G-8S+
With your environment, a CCR will literally fall over. It simply can not deal with BGP, Firewall Rules, and Traffic in high quantities. High traffic and maybe 100 firewall rules, will be enough to stop the CCR dead in it's tracks. It's definitely not the 'flagship' that MT is making it out to be.

After how many thousands of US$, how many failed CCR devices (power suppliers), and how many days, weeks, months of bad performance, we are replacing all our CCRs with CHRs (against our wishes as x86 support is dying).
Regards,
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed May 24, 2017 7:39 pm

We are thinking to buy CCR1072-1G-8S+
With your environment, a CCR will literally fall over. It simply can not deal with BGP, Firewall Rules, and Traffic in high quantities. High traffic and maybe 100 firewall rules, will be enough to stop the CCR dead in it's tracks. It's definitely not the 'flagship' that MT is making it out to be.

After how many thousands of US$, how many failed CCR devices (power suppliers), and how many days, weeks, months of bad performance, we are replacing all our CCRs with CHRs (against our wishes as x86 support is dying).
Question: With full BGP tables and maybe 100 firewall rules as you describe where a CCR simply can not deal ... Is a CHR on a high end XEON system good enough to do the job in real life with decent throughput with throughput speeds greater than 1-gig ? How well can a CHR handle 10-Gig interfaces with what kind of typical throughputs ?

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:03 pm

Mikrotik continues to ignore fast x86, and still releases routers on old slow cores from the past:

CCR2116 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL73400, based on ARM Cortex-A72 from 2016)
CCR2004 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL324, based on ARM Cortex-A57 from 2012)
CCR10XX (Tilera TILE-Gx from 2012)
RB5009 (Marvell Armada 7040, based on ARM Cortex-A72 from 2016)
RB4011, RB1100AHx4 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL21400, based on ARM Cortex-A15 from 2011)
RB3011 (Qualcomm IPQ8064, based on Qualcomm Krait 300 from 2012)

for example RB1100AHx4 can only 530 Mbps with GRE+IPsec tunnel viewtopic.php?t=180597
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:04 pm

Mikrotik continues to ignore fast x86, and still releases routers on old slow cores from the past:

CCR2116 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL73400, based on ARM Cortex-A72 from 2016)
CCR2004 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL324, based on ARM Cortex-A57 from 2012)
CCR10XX (Tilera TILE-Gx from 2012)
RB5009 (Marvell Armada 7040, based on ARM Cortex-A72 from 2016)
RB4011, RB1100AHx4 (Annapurna Labs Alpine AL21400, based on ARM Cortex-A15 from 2011)
RB3011 (Qualcomm IPQ8064, based on Qualcomm Krait 300 from 2012)

for example RB1100AHx4 can only 530 Mbps with GRE+IPsec tunnel viewtopic.php?t=180597
Arm cores are more power/heat friendly compared to intel CPUs. So something like Snapdragon 8cx would be beefy. But I guess MT does not sell that high numbers. So it is difficult to get a reasonable price ...
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:13 pm


With your environment, a CCR will literally fall over. It simply can not deal with BGP, Firewall Rules, and Traffic in high quantities. High traffic and maybe 100 firewall rules, will be enough to stop the CCR dead in it's tracks. It's definitely not the 'flagship' that MT is making it out to be.

After how many thousands of US$, how many failed CCR devices (power suppliers), and how many days, weeks, months of bad performance, we are replacing all our CCRs with CHRs (against our wishes as x86 support is dying).
Question: With full BGP tables and maybe 100 firewall rules as you describe where a CCR simply can not deal ... Is a CHR on a high end XEON system good enough to do the job in real life with decent throughput with throughput speeds greater than 1-gig ? How well can a CHR handle 10-Gig interfaces with what kind of typical throughputs ?

North Idaho Tom Jones
Throughput >1G is no problem. CCRs does this with ease (Just look at the tables at mikrotik.com). Problem with ROS is Routing Calculation (not routing itself) is done with one core. So one core is at 100% all the time. So your BGP learning speed depends on the performance of one core. Take a XEON with a single core speed >100 times of a CCR you get this done without problems. But take care to get HW/Network adapters which work flawless with CHR. So if you can get a tested system from a vendor you might avoid problems.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:26 pm

Arm cores are more power/heat friendly compared to intel CPUs.
x86 also have power-efficient cores:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracemont ... hitecture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tremont_( ... hitecture)
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:44 pm

There have been a couple of US only WISP x86 routers in the past and got favorable reviews back in the day.
I would love if they went down this road but I can understand from a power,cooling and expense probably makes it probably not the route their WISP/SMB customers want.
Given that the whole pc industry is now starting to pivot to ARM, Mikrotik might have chosen the correct path as Tilera was a bit of a dud tbh.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:48 pm

CCR2116 supports L3 Hardware Offloading. In some cases, it can route packets at close to 10Gbps speed while keeping the CPU idle.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:13 pm

Given that the whole pc industry is now starting to pivot to ARM, Mikrotik might have chosen the correct path .
ARM also has modern fast cores https://www.arm.com/products/silicon-ip ... eoverse-n2
and DPU based on this cores https://www.marvell.com/content/dam/mar ... -brief.pdf
but Mikrotik uses old slow cores...
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:09 pm

x86 processors
At my ISP/WISP business , we use a dozen=plus Mikrotik CHR ROS routers ( running on fast XEON processors under VmWare ESXi.
Almost all of my CHRs can UDP btest to 127.0.0.1 ( local internal CHR IP address ) and hit nearly 999-Gig throughput.
I've never seen a physical Mikrotik even come within 10-percent of that speed.

IMO , in my NOC , I don't care about lower-power energy saving routers. I only want fast at any energy cost.

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:20 pm

Another reason I prefer CHR on XEON processors is the following:

We do a lot of CGN-NAT. We normally average 70-thousand+ CGN-NAT translations going through the CHR and we easily exceed 3.8 Gig CGN-NATted throughput on our primary CGN-NAT CHR router while the Xeon CPUs all show under 20-percent utilization. I don't think Mikrotik has a physical router that can handle this type of NAT throughput.

North Idaho Tom Jones.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:33 pm

CCR2116 supports L3 Hardware Offloading. In some cases, it can route packets at close to 10Gbps speed while keeping the CPU idle.
raimondsp ; Re "... route packets at close to 10Gbps ..."
Routing ( without any firewalls ) at close to 10Gbps can be a very low CPU intensive process.
However , running at close to 10Gbps and passing all the traffic through firewall filters and NATting at that speed and customer bandwidth shaping is very CPU intensive and difficult or impossible to hardware offload.

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:46 pm

However , running at close to 10Gbps and passing all the traffic through firewall filters and NATting at that speed and customer bandwidth shaping is very CPU intensive and difficult or impossible to hardware offload.
re: "Passing all traffic through firewall filters" - you do realize that it only offloads fasttracked traffic? If you have a fasttrack rule for all traffic, only the initial packet of each connection needs to be handled by the firewall and everything fasttracked is hardware offloaded (until you hit the connection limit). Obviously bandwidth shaping is a different matter.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:53 pm

I would guess price-point.

An multiple-SFP+ x86 board with some quality and required power supplies will cost at least as a Supermicro. Then just buy a Supermicro.
Then there exists a million ways to run a router/firewall on x86. VyOS is a great alternative for example.

But for many ports, power consumption and form factor - ARM and network SoCs beats x86.
Last edited by mada3k on Fri Dec 03, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CCR/CRS/hEX/wAP • Ansible • NetXMS
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:23 pm

I just wish a CCR1072 replacement comes soon.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:56 pm

But for many ports, power consumption and form factor - ARM and network SoCs beats x86.
only if they are modern ARM...
latest smartphones use new Cortex-X2 @3GHz
latest MT routers use old Cortex-A72 @1.4-2GHz
apparently, the MT's engineers believe that the speed of the tunnel is less important than viewing Instagram
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Fri Jan 21, 2022 1:40 am

CCR2116 supports L3 Hardware Offloading. In some cases, it can route packets at close to 10Gbps speed while keeping the CPU idle.

But can it act as a wirespeed MPLS LSR (P) using the Marvell ASIC ? and what about wirespeed LER (PE) ?
Mikrotik MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCINE
http://thebrotherswisp.com/
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Mon Feb 28, 2022 6:23 pm

Single-core IPsec tunnels performance on Intel Xeon D-2798NX
sm.018.800.png
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do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:58 am

Single-core IPsec tunnels performance on Intel Xeon D-2798NX
the improvements in IPSEC performance are from ASIC Hardware Acceleration Built in the SOC

there is no General Purpose CORE, not ARM, not x86, not MIPS, no POWER PC, capable of this kind of IPSEC performance by their own

only feasible using ASIC

because this Modern CPUs, ARM x86, MIPS, are integrating ASIC hardware Accelerators for some tasks
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Tue Mar 01, 2022 2:58 pm

the improvements in IPSEC performance are from ASIC Hardware Acceleration Built in the SOC
there is no General Purpose CORE, not ARM, not x86, not MIPS, no POWER PC, capable of this kind of IPSEC performance by their own
even when using CPU (AES-NI), speed reaches almost 30Gbps.
do not ask me why it is necessary.
 
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Re: Why Mikrotik does not produce the routers on x86 processors?

Tue Mar 01, 2022 5:12 pm

the improvements in IPSEC performance are from ASIC Hardware Acceleration Built in the SOC
there is no General Purpose CORE, not ARM, not x86, not MIPS, no POWER PC, capable of this kind of IPSEC performance by their own
even when using CPU (AES-NI), speed reaches almost 30Gbps.

AES-NI is a form of hardware acceleration, is not ASIC in the stric term but is embedded into the core in the form os specific instructions inside the general purpose core to efficiently do AES in this case

and this kind of acceleration is not exclusive of x86, there is ARM solutions like this

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