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chanklish
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network surge protection

Wed May 11, 2022 6:31 pm

Hello

i am trying to protect some outdoor access points that are not connected to my ups and power protection system ( mainly against lightning and such - i understand i will never be able to safeguard against the full force of a lightning )

i found this : GESP+POE-IN

1-does it come with outdoor protection ( ip67 for outdoor usage ) or am i supposed to buy the cover ?
2-should i buy this and GESP in the same time ?
3-Poe should pass by it normally to power the outdoor access point correct ?!

thank you
Last edited by chanklish on Thu May 12, 2022 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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rextended
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Re: network surge protection

Wed May 11, 2022 6:39 pm

GESP+PoE is a passive PoE injector with surge protection,
is intended to be putted at the start.
This is only for indoor, do not include the cover (if needed, is GPeR IP67 Case: https://mikrotik.com/product/gper_ip67_case)
https://mikrotik.com/product/gesp_poe_in

GESP is Gigabit Ethernet Surge Protector with IP67 waterproof enclosure
is intended to be putted just before the RouterBOARD AP/Station/CPE
https://mikrotik.com/product/rbgesp

1) No.

2) Two separate product

3) Yes.
 
chanklish
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 12:09 pm

hello , thank you for your valuable input (fixed the "buy" :D )
Let's say i have this scenario
Mikrotik router -> poe adapter -> outdoor access point
1- would the non-poe GESP work ? ie the outdoor access point will still get power from the adapter
2- if yes to 1 , where should it be installed ? before the adapter ( router->GESP-> poe adapter) ?
3- if no to 1 , whould the GESP-POe work ? and where should it be installed ?

thank you
 
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woland
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 2:00 pm

Hi,
1./ yes the surge protectors let the PoE pass
2&3./ generally you put the surge protector as near as possbe to the device you want to protect. To have the most protection (for example AP outside, router inside the house), you use two surge protectors. So surge protector for the router would be immediately before the router (this can be the one with PoE feed to feed the AP), a second surge protector without PoE can be installed near the AP. You should connect the grounding wire, the grenn/yellow wire from the surge protectors to a grounding point very near to the devices you protect to a common point with the device,
Also general advice: use shielded cables and use the shortest cables possible, especially between surge protector and device. Make sure the antenna mast is connected to the earthing & connect it to a potential equalization system of the house (this part is probably better left to qualified electricians).

A direct lightning hit into the AP would probably still result in the AP damaged especially if the AP has a plastic case. The chance of this can be lowered by not mounting on the top of the mast. Still lightning can be very unpredictable.

W
 
chanklish
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 2:49 pm

thank you Woland , i understood all except the place of the GESP
it will be like this : mikrotik router - GESP - POE adapter -- cable - GESP - Outdoor Access point correct ? both should be GESP POE i think or only the second one ??
 
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Larsa
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 2:54 pm

The average energy of a lightning bolt is about a gigajoule using between 300 million and 1 billion volts (ie about 1,000 and 30,000 amps)

There is normally no chance to cope with a lightning strike as a direct hit into a normal private residence since the electric energy is so massive it will spread everywhere following the wires inside the building. Thus a plastic cover or not doesn't really matter.

Some example pics:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
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woland
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 3:41 pm

thank you Woland , i understood all except the place of the GESP
it will be like this : mikrotik router - GESP - POE adapter -- cable - GESP - Outdoor Access point correct ? both should be GESP POE i think or only the second one ??
Hi,

GESP - POE: you need just a single one so that you can feed the AP and you can feed the ap through a non PoE GESP:

Router---PoE GESP ---long cable --- GESP--AP

@Larsa: I don´t agree. It does very much matter to have measures against lightning and also a massive metallic case can be such a measure and a very effective one.
The lightning mostly doesn´t hit an antenna/AP directly and the amount of energy transfered by lightning bolts generally varies a lot.
Also consider this: if you have a metallic casing with low resistance, the energy of the lightning is not going to be dissipated in the casing. Also if you looking at the lightning as a current source, you will have a very low voltage between the entry point on the casing and the exit point, because the resistance is very low.

The quality of household electric installations varies wildly, but the more you do against lightning damage, the less the chance your equipment will die.
However you should never just install surge protectors and think you are all set. In fact good grounding and potential equalization combined with proper lightning protection are needed.
Actually the current lightning protection norms in residential buildings in the EU are sufficient for household protection. There are of couse different levels defined and the higher level you have (IV is the lowest level ) the higher is your chance to survive a hit.

You can do a lot about lightning protection, but it costs you money, time and effort, so many times people just ignore it.

W
 
chanklish
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 4:04 pm

yes i understand the power of lightning .. we are in Congo where we have storms for 6 months .. i am trying to give my tens of outdoor access points any chance to survive a hit near them
 
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jbl42
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 4:48 pm

Multimode plastic fiber stuff has gotten very cheap.
For WAPs exposed on poles, using cheap plastic fiber for the network link solves all problems with EMC, potential differences and surges.
If the WAP is missing SFP, use a cheap media converter to convert to copper on top of the pole.

The power supply of course still needs surge protection, but power lines are easier to protect than network connections. Also in case of a surge on the power, there is a good chance that only the power supply dies, which often can be replaced/repaired. A surge on a network cable usually fries stuff on the PCB in an unrepairable way.
 
chanklish
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 5:26 pm

yes i am starting to transform all my main links to fiber , but fiber is still anew tech in congo ( very hard to find skills and materials ) will have to do everything myself - not an issue if it saves me the headache later on - but still have to pass a power cable
 
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woland
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 5:54 pm

In my opinion fiber is a great stuff, but maybe for a single AP it is too complex. You loose the simplicity of PoE. and you still need surge protection for the power.
The fiber links however eliminate the need for the protection of ethernet on the router side (also not for the surge protection of the powering of the router, but that should be needed in any case).
@jbl42: you probably just mean multimode fibre (which is glas, but that´s also getting cheaper), or is there really a plastic fibre solution for 1G and for let´s say longer than >30m?

W
 
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jbl42
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 6:15 pm

@jbl42: you probably just mean multimode fibre (which is glas, but that´s also getting cheaper), or is there really a plastic fibre solution for 1G and for let´s say longer than >30m?
We used fs.com OM3 Multimode PVC (OFNR) with success for such applications:
https://www.fs.com/products/74385.html? ... &id=302839

The 30m version is about 20$, the 50m about 28$, 100m about 60$, 300m about 150$.
 
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woland
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 6:29 pm

I see, thanks for the link! That looks like OM3 glass and not plastic to me. 8) But anyway still very cheap.

Tschüss!
W
 
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jbl42
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 6:59 pm

I see, thanks for the link! That looks like OM3 glass and not plastic to me. 8) But anyway still very cheap.
After checking it out: You're right. The "PVC (OFNR)" is bout the coating of the fiber, not the fiber itself.
And yes, fs.com is a real price dumper. (I'm not affiliated with fs.com except being a happy customer)
 
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Larsa
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 7:24 pm

@Woland, I've only seen the outcome of a direct hit a couple of times. It was on some remote islands where the affected buildings had most of the electronic devices busted even if the masts and all wires where properly grounded. In one place where the main building was struck the lightning spread further through the power lines into two adjacent buildings which also were affected.

Nowadays we only install basic protection for ground current leakage since there is no point in spending time and money on extra protection that doesn't get you any special benefits on the insurance anyway.

We have some installations far out in the archipelago and so far haven't had any additionally incidents with destroyed equipment due to lightning (knock on wood). In fact, most problems are due to human errors where someone accidentally turned off the power, damaging a cable while planting flowers and so forth.

Regarding fiber, we've also had this discussion, but the conclusion was that the benefits of PoE outweighed thus we still use standard outdoor cables (SF/UTP) and only fiber over longer distances.
 
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woland
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Re: network surge protection

Thu May 12, 2022 8:45 pm

@Woland, I've only seen the outcome of a direct hit a couple of times. It was on some remote islands where the affected buildings had most of the electronic devices busted even if the masts and all wires where properly grounded. In one place where the main building was struck the lightning spread further through the power lines into two adjacent buildings which also were affected.
It very much depends on the quality of the installation. Proper grounding is very important, having capable surge protectors in the feed of the house is also a must. Also the lightning protection should be properly made (massive wires, loops+poles, grounded on 2 corners of the house, but that depends on many factors). Properly made potential equalization.
If anything of these is missing, then you will greatly increase the chance of a damage. We are talking about chances here: there is no 100% solution and you must of course consider the costs vs benefits.
I have seen many antenna installs which are hit regularily by flashes, but remained in operation for many years. So you can for sure have a relaible protection, it will cost you accordingly.
Of course the need for protection also varies with the lightning frequency. If you are situated atop a mountain, or you are on an island at 10m from the sea level, there is a huge difference in the probability of a direct hit.

As for the fiber, I wouldn´t bother if I would go for a PoE AP, but between buildings, actually in a professional environment between floors you should always use fiber. Not only because of the electric properties, but also becuase if you grow, you will have the possibility to expand by using CWDM/DWDM to have multiple wavelengths.
A fiber once laid will probably have enough bandwidth for the next 200 years. :)

BR
W
 
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Re: network surge protection

Fri May 13, 2022 3:33 pm

Also the lightning protection should be properly made (massive wires, loops+poles, ...
Exactly. Direct lightning hitting wireless antenna is sure way of frying everything connected using conductive cables in the vicinity (fibre cable is ideal surge protector!). However, if lightning strikes into grounding pole, rising a meter or three above antenna, electronic equipment has a chance to survive if proper surge protectors are in place. Vast majority of ESD damage is due to indirect strikes / voltage spikes induced in wires. Voltage levels can be pretty high in such cases (capable of spectacular damage to electronic devices), but energy is many orders of magnitude lower than the one of direct lightning strike. Which makes surge protectors effective protection.
 
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Larsa
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Re: network surge protection

Fri May 13, 2022 8:30 pm

There are certain conditions where the ground consists only of very thin layer or no soil at all which limits the ability to absorb current good enough to discharge all energy into the ground.

Electrically grounding directly into bedrock sometimes only offers a partial protection as we also discovered regarding one of the affected sites.
--

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