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paraplu
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hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:18 pm

Not sure if this request was already mentioned before, but would it be an idea to deliver a low-latency router device with:

- just two ports: SFP+ and UTP, preferably 10gbps, but 5 or 2.5 would already jump the popularity bandwagon.
- no switch chip; both directly connected to a multi-core CPU. No more bridge HW-offloading nightmares.
- no POE (nightmares)
- high performance CPU e.g. alike RB5009 or better, also to accommodate low latency (wireguard) VPN
- small form factor
- low power usage
- to further reduce cost: no external (usb) storage or additional power input options

Reasoning: a small home device with focus on routing only, to let a proper switch behind handle the rest (inter-vlan routing, dhcp, ACL's, etc).

Currently using RB5009 as pure NAT router with only two ports connected (avoiding that miserable eth1), with multiple static routes to a (cisco) switch which can handle L3 routing through ASIC with wire speed. Seems to work more responsive than using the AIO bridge-switch setup with HW offloading, at this moment.
 
mada3k
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:25 pm

Sounds like a horrible idea with only two ports.

You you need to NAT/Firewall 10Gbps of traffic, then you probably can afford a CCR2004-16G-2S+PC
 
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inteq
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Sep 16, 2022 2:54 am

A small but powerfull 2 SPF+ only would be a dream for many locations.
I have only one location without a proper switch.
Rest, only ether1 and ether 2 in use, no matter how big the router is. Waste of ports to be frank.
 
paraplu
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Thu Jan 04, 2024 10:34 pm

Bumping this idea.

A small device with only two 2.5 or 10g-capable ports just for routing. No switch chip. Multi-gbps routing please, with L3HW in ASIC instead of software.

Some vendors (eg. ubiquiti) have these 2-port devices recently introduced with lots of marketing (although 1gbps only) so apparently there is a broad customer need.
 
mada3k
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 11:42 am

Who cares about size and price when we are talking about 10gigs?
Why the desire for only two ports?
 
mbovenka
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 12:39 pm

I can see the use case for an edge router/CPE device for the multigigabit internet services that are being rolled out nowadays. I have 8 gigabit (ISP Odido in the Netherlands) and am running a CCR1036-8G-2S+ as my router, of which I only use the two SFP+ ports. If I could get a truly 10G-capable little box with just the SFP+ ports for say, half the price of the CCR2116, that would be just the ticket.

I just ordered a CRS309 to play with to see how well L3 HW offload will do the trick (or not). It's a pity the CRS305 can't do NAT/FW offloading, otherwise it would be a no-brainer for a job like that. Something like a 'CRS305+' with the CRS309 switch chip for something like $200 would be killer.
 
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mkx
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:39 pm

If I could get a truly 10G-capable little box with just the SFP+ ports for say, half the price of the CCR2116, that would be just the ticket.
You wouldn't get it for half the price ... the single item with highest price inside your CCR2116 is SoC only followed by switch chip. So if a vendor (i.e. MT) decides not to use switch chip but to use two of those 10Gbps network lanes ... then they still need to include some hardware (MII device, which is included in switch chip) and then connect to SFP+ ports. The rest of hardware (RAM, NAND, etc) is the same, so no savings there. The only saving would be smaller case size (which would in turn then require external power adapter ... with full 19" width it's possible to include PA inside device).
 
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 3:59 pm

You're no doubt right. A 'CRS305+' falling between the current CRS305 & CRS309 should be possible, though. My CRS309 arrives tomorrow; new(-ish, I already use one as a switch) toy to play with. We'll see what happens when I try to push 3+ Gbps NATed traffic through it :D.
 
pe1chl
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 4:50 pm

When you are looking for a small and fast router with a few ports, you could consider a Chinese "mini PC".
Although it is easier to find with 2.5Gbps ports (I have one with 4 such ports), they are available with SFP ports as well (2 or 4).
Advantage is that (when selecting the proper model), CPU performance is relatively high. So when hardware offloading is not viable, you still have performance (much more than with the CRS models).
 
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:25 pm

For an "Edge CPE" for interfacing a customer with 10G you probably wan't a managed switch of some kind, like the CRS305.

The customer can then decide what kind of equipment they would like to use.
 
pe1chl
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:09 pm

He is not an ISP, he gets fiber from the ISP and wants a router to put between the fiber and the home network.
As he has arranged the switching part of the network already, he only requires a 2-port router.

Unfortunately there often are snags. E.g. the ISP insists on using PPPoE, which cannot be hardware-offloaded in MikroTik.
So all traffic is going through the CPU and that limits the speed on such CRS devices which have a slow CPU.
(they are intended for switching where the CPU is only used for management, or routing where the switching hardware does L3 routing with assistence from the CPU to setup the routes)

So it is desirable to have a poweful CPU, and hence a CCR device or the mentioned "mini PC" bricks.
 
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Fri Jan 05, 2024 9:20 pm

I see, but either way sounds like a very slim "demand" for such a device since the majority of households have <1Gbps and often need a couple for ports for wired devices.

Yes, A two port mini-PC with 10GBase-T would probably be the closest thing.
 
paraplu
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Sat Jan 06, 2024 1:53 am

@all thanks for your feedback.

Indeed this is a customer/pro idea, not ISP-related, and preparing for >1Gbps wan connection which we cannot ignore anymore. Households are offered > 1Gbps subscriptions worldwide rapidly.

Already tried a CRS309 but L3HW does not work with PPPoe and RouterOS. Combining this with a routed IPTV setup kills this switch immediately.

Curently using the cheap but mighty RB750Gr3 as 2-port router as it gives a full 1/1Gbps L3 offloaded dual stack, with OpenWRT, which RouterOS cannot provide.

If Mikrotik can provide an upgrade to a device alike mentioned RB750Gr3, but with >1gpbs capability, and with improved L3 offloading, that would be something!

My RB5009, RB4011, CRS309, CCR1009 are all lying dust. The RB750Gr3 with OpenWRT beats them all.
 
pe1chl
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:52 am

As I mentioned before, RouterOS does not offer PPPoE hardware offloading.
Probably PPPoE is not used in Latvia, and often when the developers see no local need for something, they do not spend much time on it.

I still have no fiber here, only VDSL2. In the past I often have asked for better VDSL support but MikroTik is not interested because "everyone has fiber". Maybe in Latvia, but not here.
(finally there seem to be plans to deploy it this year, but I have heard that before)

Maybe you can make a support ticket asking for hardware offloading of PPPoE and see what they reply.
(for many years the reply to "better IPv6 support" also was "nobody ever asks for that"...)
 
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:21 pm

Everyone doesn't have fiber. I'm on Cable.

PPPoE is a very strange choise in modern FTTH/FTTB world. Last time I saw it was in the ADSL-days with some obscure providers, and then it was like 12Mbps at top.
 
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mkx
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:41 pm

PPPoE offers nice way of authenticating broadband users (e.g. in case user subscribes to static IPv4 address or IPv6 prefix). Binding that to MAC address is so much less secure (or foolproof). PPPoE makes also routing of those static things much easier. It also offers an easy way of entirely eliminating ISP's gadget in case of open access GPON (where ONT belongs to GPON operator and ISP only provides a router whithout any "magical" functionality).
So apart from being a processing resource hog (and that it often reduces MTU) PPPoE isn't so bad.

At home I have GPON with 1Gbps/100Mbps, ISP uses PPPoE and my hAP ac2 manages the bandwidth just fine (on IPv4 with fasttrack enabled ... not for IPv6 where fasttrack is not supported ... but this has nothing to do with PPPoE, no-fasttrack drop in throughput is so radical that those few % of CPU load caused by PPPoE doesn't make much of a change).
 
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Re: hardware idea for two-port high performance router

Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:56 pm

The reasons why PPPoE is used here:
1. the transport networks and internet providers are different companies. the fiber network needs to allow different internet providers on their network. PPPoE provides a convenient scalable way to send each subscriber's connection to the correct ISP
2. PPPoE sends all traffic to a centralized router, instead of having subnets and routers all over the country. this is convenient because it creates a place where the mandatory "lawful intercept" can be done (copying all traffic for a subscriber to justice department).

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