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Cartman
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Radar detect problem

Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:36 pm

Hello world!!!

I have massive problems with connection loss because of radar detection.
The devices are located ~200m from a Wehrmacht-Base, which I think is
the cause of the problem. No available channel is free from radar at the site.
This might not be too bad, but after "radar detected.." and disconnect, the
device needs 30 minutes to reconnect.

Why does it take so long to reconnect. I would think that switching to a
different channel and reconnecting could be done in ess than a minute.

My customers on a camping site go crazy everytime a warship comes in
and forces WiFi to switch off.

My wireless settings:
name="wlan1" mtu=1500 l2mtu=1600 mac-address=6C:3B:6B:4D:80:28 arp=enabled
disable-running-check=no interface-type=Atheros AR9300
radio-name="6C3B6B4D8028" mode=ap-bridge ssid=<my SSID> area=""
frequency-mode=regulatory-domain country=germany installation=any
antenna-gain=0 frequency=5280 band=5ghz-onlyn channel-width=20/40mhz-XX
secondary-frequency="" scan-list=default wireless-protocol=802.11
rate-set=default
supported-rates-a/g=6Mbps,9Mbps,12Mbps,18Mbps,24Mbps,36Mbps,48Mbps,54Mbps
basic-rates-a/g=6Mbps max-station-count=2007 distance=dynamic
tx-power-mode=default noise-floor-threshold=default
nv2-noise-floor-offset=default vlan-mode=no-tag vlan-id=1
wds-mode=disabled wds-default-bridge=none wds-default-cost=100
wds-cost-range=50-150 wds-ignore-ssid=no update-stats-interval=disabled
bridge-mode=enabled default-authentication=yes default-forwarding=yes
default-ap-tx-limit=0 default-client-tx-limit=0 wmm-support=disabled
hide-ssid=yes security-profile=default wps-mode=disabled
station-roaming=enabled disconnect-timeout=3s on-fail-retry-time=100ms
preamble-mode=both compression=no allow-sharedkey=no
station-bridge-clone-mac=00:00:00:00:00:00 ampdu-priorities=0
ampdu-subframes=default guard-interval=any
ht-supported-mcs=mcs-0,mcs-1,mcs-2,mcs-3,mcs-4,mcs-5,mcs-6,mcs-7,mcs-8,mcs-
9,mcs-10,mcs-11,mcs-12,mcs-13,mcs-14,mcs-15,mcs-16,mcs-17,mcs-
18,mcs-19,mcs-20,mcs-21,mcs-22,mcs-23
ht-basic-mcs=mcs-0,mcs-1,mcs-2,mcs-3,mcs-4,mcs-5,mcs-6,mcs-7 tx-chains=0
rx-chains=0 amsdu-limit=8192 amsdu-threshold=8192 tdma-debug=0
tdma-test-mode=0 tdma-hw-test-mode="" tdma-override-rate=disabled
tdma-override-size=0 tdma-period-size=2 nv2-queue-count=2 nv2-qos=default
nv2-cell-radius=30 nv2-security=disabled nv2-preshared-key=""
nv2-mode=dynamic-downlink nv2-downlink-ratio=50 nv2-sync-secret=""
hw-retries=7 frame-lifetime=0 adaptive-noise-immunity=none
hw-fragmentation-threshold=disabled hw-protection-mode=none
hw-protection-threshold=0 frequency-offset=0 rate-selection=advanced
multicast-helper=default multicast-buffering=enabled
keepalive-frames=enabled skip-dfs-channels=all
Any idea ?
 
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Amm0
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sat Jun 11, 2022 2:52 pm

You want to pick a channel that isn't in the DFS block (radar sensing ones). While you set "skip-dfs-channel=all", that has no effect since an explicit frequency is set (5280 in your config). And 5280Mhz will be shutdown upon detecting radar.

Using "auto" as frequency would fix it, since the skip-dfs-channel would ensure a non-DFS. Better would be if you can do a channel scan, to pick a non-DFS frequency to use, see this for which frequencies are "DFS": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... j/n/ac/ax) for the list of frequencies
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:00 am

MK implementation of the radar detection is big pile of garbage.
Let me explain.

I have two routers - ac2 and ac3. They are in medium sized apartment. If I try to run them at the same time the second one is always stuck in "radar detecting". The ac2 is in a closed in the center of the apartment. This closed have at least 2 or 3 brick or concrete/rebar walls on each side before the building "ends". In that closet there is a heating system - there is 3 stainless steel water heaters, washing machine, metal shelf. All these things reflect radio waves - in case somehow a radar penetrated all the surrounding buildings and mine. Another thing is that snooper does not find anything on any channel, except the already running AP.

MK engineers - what I am supposed to do, to run both APs on 5180? Is this some kind of joke you like to read on forums about people struggling with your equipment? When I searched in google this issue goes back to at least 2017. So couldn't you fixed it for these 5 years?

I understand it is a regulation and a real problem when used outside. But how will my ac2 without antennas will interfere with anything(oh yes I know it have internal antennas)?

Oh no Auto does not fix anything - it just put both on 5180 and you deal with the packet lost. So yeah technically it will work, but wont be usable.

I am going to install OpenWRT on these boxes and will post screenshots on the forum to show the comparison and usability of both.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 10:10 am


frequency=5280
installation=any
guard-interval=any
hide-ssid=yes
frequency=auto or 5745-5825
installation=outdoor
guard-interval=long
hide-ssid=no


@pnwise
Setting up multiple access points next to each other can only be done manually. So far there is no software that can make this setting correctly. The software does not have a room plan and radio intelligence data, so it has to be done manually.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 4:14 pm

@pnwise
Setting up multiple access points next to each other can only be done manually. So far there is no software that can make this setting correctly. The software does not have a room plan and radio intelligence data, so it has to be done manually.
I know - I am setting them manually. I was just explaining what the auto option will do.
But then it begs the question - if it is auto and detects another AP with the same SSID at given frequency/channel who decided it is a good idea to use the same frequency? Where is the "auto" in that?
Better suited name for this would be random, default, static-5180 or something along the lines, because it is not auto at all.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:52 pm

You want to pick a channel that isn't in the DFS block (radar sensing ones)
That is impossible in any country subject ETSI regulations, all channels permitted for outdoor operation mandate DFS.
 
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Amm0
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 7:11 pm

You want to pick a channel that isn't in the DFS block (radar sensing ones)
That is impossible in any country subject ETSI regulations, all channels permitted for outdoor operation mandate DFS.
Fair enough. I'm in the U.S., there are guns & DFS-free 5Ghz outdoor channels. But yeah that makes it tough given the OP's situation...
The devices are located ~200m from a Wehrmacht-Base, which I think is the cause of the problem.
If your forced to use DFS & and Mikrotik Wi-Fi... I have no idea if it's still a good idea to set a fixed channel and hope it has less DFS issues, or use auto so the AP pick a new channel. And DFS doesn't seem like abstract risk in the OP's case.
 
Cartman
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:05 pm

@ Ca6ko:
frequency=auto or 5745-5825
installation=outdoor
guard-interval=long
hide-ssid=no
Some weeks ago I tested every single channel and radar-detect came on each one within less than one hour.
Frequency= auto has already been tested. It starts at 5180 detects radar, disconnects and tries again after half an hour on 5180.
There have not been any frequesncy changes by the device, as I expected.
I will try guard-interval and installation=outdoor.
SSID must be hidden, because it is part of a ptp-bridge and I do not want any clients to connect to the AP.
Currently I have Skip DFS channels = disabled and no connection losses. It might not be legal, but it works.

ROS is 7.2.3
 
ste
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jun 12, 2022 11:14 pm

@ Ca6ko:
frequency=auto or 5745-5825
installation=outdoor
guard-interval=long
hide-ssid=no
Some weeks ago I tested every single channel and radar-detect came on each one within less than one hour.
Frequency= auto has already been tested. It starts at 5180 detects radar, disconnects and tries again after half an hour on 5180.
There have not been any frequesncy changes by the device, as I expected.
I will try guard-interval and installation=outdoor.
SSID must be hidden, because it is part of a ptp-bridge and I do not want any clients to connect to the AP.
Currently I have Skip DFS channels = disabled and no connection losses. It might not be legal, but it works.

ROS is 7.2.3
You are not able to use MT legal anyway using max allowed Power. Without ATPC Power is decreased to a unusable level. Just configure correct Antenna gain and ROS reduces power to allowed (low) values.
Setting antenna gain lower might increase sensivity to DFS events ...
U... starts to do DFS at CPEs with newest firmware. I guess this will make their gear useless in ETSI while beeing compliant. Their APs suffer from false DFS events (self interference), too.

So regulations in ETSI countries is a pain in the a...
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:10 pm

So regulations in ETSI countries is a pain in the a...

Real PITA is pressure from vendors and general public to (re)use spectrum which was used by professional users since very long time ago. Which is the case in 5GHz spectrum with legacy users being both aviation radars as well as meteorological radars. And the DFS (etc.) is a rotten compromise ... if made properly it makes wifi users' lives miserable[*] but if not made entirely properly it makes legacy users' lives intolerable. Legacy users can't move to another part of frequency spectrum either due to high investment (aviation radars) or due to physical constraints (meteorological radars).

[*] The current state is half-proper implementation which makes lives of both groups unhappy, but it can't be made entirely proper with low-end hardware. With better hardware it would be possible to implement things so that legacy users would be happy and wifi users only slightly unhappy.

And the same thing is happening again and again, latest addition was allocation of 16GHz spectrum for 5G mobile networks ... it comes dangerously close to band where water vapour radiates at "normal" temperatures and this is being detected (passively!) by next gen weather satellites. Any interference there means invalid measurements over larger area which in turn hampers the ability to improve weather forecasts. So the mankind will have to make some decission about what's more important: good weather forecasts (which can save actual lives) or better internet access (which can save some on-line lives).
 
ste
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Re: Radar detect problem

Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:41 pm

Weather radar uses only a very small channel at 5,6. So it would be possible to live for both kind of users.
Last edited by BartoszP on Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed excessive quotting of preceding post; be wise, quote smart, save network traffic
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Mon Jun 13, 2022 4:39 pm

Be aware of the difference between DFS (channel 52 till 144 ) with 1 minute radar detect) and weather radar frequencies in that range (channel 120-124-128) with 10 minutes of silence/radar detect.

The 10 minute (cac10) frequency channel can be part of your wider channel 40 or 80MHz and as such trigger the 10 minutes, certainly if XX or XXXX is used.

Experienced: A wAP ac can trigger false positive radar detect, eg if in the beam of a SXTsq , even if the wAP ac is using a non-DFS freq (channel 36 till 48). The SXTsq Snooper on the SXTsq showed an extra phantom device with 200+MHz offset frequencies.
 
Cartman
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Re: Radar detect problem

Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:36 pm

Maybe I will try to downgrade ROS to 6.48 next time I am at the site.
I cannot remember having problems with radar last year.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 am

Downgraded ROS to v6.48.6.
No radar detects withing the last 36 hours.
Seems like ROS v7 is the problem.

Will keep an eye on it.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Sun Jan 01, 2023 5:20 am

It seems if you tweak settings the wifi just breaks on Radar detect, it's almost like it's miss detecting it's own clients attempts at connection as radar, bloody retarded, disabling the interface for 30s to make the channel idle seems to get it working on occasion.

I'll definitely keep in mind the downgrade option, but Cake is too good to give up just yet.
Last edited by BartoszP on Sun Jan 01, 2023 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed excessive quotting of preceding post; be wise, quote smart, save network traffic
 
Cartman
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:30 pm

New season, same problem,

installed the wifi at the camping site for 2023 with 6 more devices and...
Radar everywhere.
Looks like the downgrade just "accidentally" worked last year.

Fun fact: one bridge that is not removed in winter did not detect any radar from
end of october to the end of march. Just when I put up more MikTiks it detects "radar".

It looks for me that the detected radar is just my other MT devices, and that should not
be a big problem for firmware developers to fix. Or am I wrong?

I do not know the laws, but when a device that works on 5280MHz detects radar on 5500MHz,
why is it shut down?

Is there, or will there be any solution for this problem from MikroTik in the near future?
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 12:56 pm

use this:

/in wireless/info/country-info your contry
 
Cartman
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:21 pm

I know these values, but they are not a solution.
There is not one channel available without DFS for outdoor use.
5170-5250/a,an20,an40,ac20,ac40,ac80,ac160,ac80+80(23dBm)/passive,indoor
5170-5330/a,an20,an40,ac20,ac40,ac80,ac160,ac80+80(20dBm)/dfs,passive,indoor
I don´t even know if I can use 5170 - 5250 because the second line mentions DFS for these
frequencies..

Best solution would be to use wAP60Gx3 with SXTsq60, like I do on other sites,
but MT decided to discontinue them.

To multiply the costs, I could use three wAP60 with Cube60s.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:31 pm

If power settings allow it (as in: connectivity is still acceptable), you can use indoor channels too (5180-5240).
They can be used outdoor as well.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:44 pm

For what I remember, some devices or settings do not allow that...
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 2:48 pm

They can be used outdoor as well.
Not legally. The reason they are restricted to both indoors and lower power is so that the signal, having had to pass through the building structure, is at a low enough level so as not to interfere with the licensed users of those frequencies.

The DFS detection hardware built in to most radio chips is not great so false positives are almost inevitable.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:11 pm

Why does the "country-info" not show channels 149-173?
Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_W ... 1j%29_WLAN
says it is legal for SRDs.
And SRDs are :
...including various forms of:...Local Area Networks...
(look https://www.etsi.org/technologies/short-range-devices)

https://www.everythingrf.com/community/ ... ge-devices says :
Short Range Devices (SRD) are wireless devices that transmit low power levels and operate over distances of up to a few hundred meters. They have a low effective radiated power (ERP) of typically 25-100 mW and thus do not interfere with other radio services
I only need 20 to 50 meters and less than 100mW would be OK.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:18 pm

Not legally.
Oops. You're correct.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:21 pm

Why does the "country-info" not show channels 149-173?
UNII-3 / UNII-4 ?
Recently added on wifiwave2 devices with a chipset which supports it (AX devices), as far as I know.
And that also means ROS7.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:32 pm

Product page gives me:
SXTsq Lite5 (International) supports 5150MHz-5875MHz range (Specific frequency range can be limited by country regulations).
Country regulation for Germany, if I understand it right, allow channels 149-173.

Switching back to ROS7 should be no problem.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:40 pm

Country regulation for Germany, if I understand it right, allow channels 149-173.
NO, 149-173 are allowed just for Short Range Devices @ 25mW max only... (and 163 not at all)
https://efis.cept.org/sitecontent.jsp?s ... egulations
https://efis.cept.org/adhoc_grabber.jsp?annex=4
j 5725MHz - 5875MHz 25 mW e.i.r.p.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:49 pm

Missing channel 163 does not hurt me.
And 25mW should be enough for 20 meters.

As I wrote in #22, the ETSI-definition of SRD include Local Area Networks.
I just want to send data over a distance of a few meters withoud being disturbed
by a "radar" that is miles away. I still think there is no radar, but just my other
MikroTiks see each other as "enemy radar".
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:52 pm

As I wrote in #22, the ETSI-definition of SRD include Local Area Networks.
Can you give me a link for some doc to confirm that info? Is usefull for all...
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:25 pm

SRD is a generic term, countries may apply different permissions or restrictions depending on what the device is being used for.

For example, in the UK we have the requirements for licence exempt short-range devices https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/ ... r-2030.pdf which runs to 111 pages, with Wideband Data Transmission Systems (WBDTS), Wireless Access Systems (WAS) & Short Range Indoor Data Links detailed in pages 35-44. These requirements are based on ETSI standards including:
EN 301 893 - 5 GHz wireless access systems (WAS) including RLAN equipment.
EN 302 502 - Wireless Access Systems (WAS), 5.8 GHz fixed broadband data transmitting systems.
EN 300 440 - Short Range Devices (SRD), Radio equipment to be used in the 1 GHz to 40 GHz frequency range.

Although a particular use may fall into multiple categories a manufacturer may only test, certify and allow operation in some categories as it isn't worth their while doing all of them.
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:35 pm

From your doc:
Equipment must not form part of a fixed outdoor installation [...]
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 5:59 pm

Yes, there are a number of bands where fixed PtP and PtMP links are not permitted without a licence. There are licences available permitting fixed links upto 4W / 36dBm EIRP in the 5725 – 5850 MHz band, and 316W / 55dBm EIRP in the 57 – 71 GHz band (although above 40dBm EIRP we then have to follow the ICNIRP Guidelines on EMF exposure)
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:30 pm

OK, thanks to you all.
I think I will dig some holes and put cables between the poles or
get some IgniteNet APs that are used on the other side of the street
(and do not detect radars)
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:34 pm


I am going to install OpenWRT on these boxes and will post screenshots on the forum to show the comparison and usability of both.
@pnwise
did you manage to get a comparison with OpenWRT?
 
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Re: Radar detect problem

Thu Apr 06, 2023 10:06 pm

New season, same problem,

installed the wifi at the camping site for 2023 with 6 more devices and...
Radar everywhere.
Looks like the downgrade just "accidentally" worked last year.

Fun fact: one bridge that is not removed in winter did not detect any radar from
end of october to the end of march. Just when I put up more MikTiks it detects "radar".

It looks for me that the detected radar is just my other MT devices, and that should not
be a big problem for firmware developers to fix. Or am I wrong?

I do not know the laws, but when a device that works on 5280MHz detects radar on 5500MHz,
why is it shut down?


Is there, or will there be any solution for this problem from MikroTik in the near future?
Why is that 320MHz offset no surprise to me? Déjà vu ! viewtopic.php?t=168419&hilit=320

That 320MHz offset frequency seems to look like radar. By the way in "Snooper" you can actually see that "phantome" MT AP !!!

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