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MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:33 pm

:)

A new MikroTik product:

cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wi-Fi Speed AX1800 (1200@5GHz + 574@2.4GHz)

2 gigabit ports, on one PoE in, on the other PoE out (PASSIVE, 600mA max)
1 5GHz 802.11a/n/ac/ax 2x2 MIMO 1W 5150~5850 MHz (limited for each country)
1 2,4GHz 802.11b/g/n/ax 2x2 MIMO 1W 2400~2500 MHz (limited for each country)
Dual Stream 180° 2x2 MIMO antenna for each frequency.
2,4GHz 5.6dBi
5GHz 5.4~6.0dBi (based on frequency)

Max EIRP on 2.4GHz: 30.83dBm
Max EIRP on 5GHz: 28.15~31.57dBm (based on frequency)

RouterOS v7 (only), license L4
RAM 1GB
Storage 128MB NAND

https://fccid.io/TV7CPG52X/
Last edited by rextended on Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:57 pm, edited 8 times in total.
 
onnoossendrijver
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:40 pm

Shut up and take my money! ;-)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:46 pm

The external design and mount points are similar to the cAP XL ac:

Image

Image
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:58 pm

Just what I have been waiting for !
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:08 pm

This is the big version....the smaller would be more appreciated from my side...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:30 pm

2.5g on first port would have been nice... But still.. instabuy :)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:05 pm

2.5G = more heat, more uselessly depleted power...
The limit still to real usable from IP protocol ~800Mbps....
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:44 pm

2.5g on first port would have been nice... But still.. instabuy :)
2x2, can't really take advantage of >1G port real world and just adds cost.

hope a 4x4+ model comes with a >1G port
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:25 pm

Is there an wall mount enclosure?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:38 pm

If same enclosure as cap ac xl, it can be mounted both horizontally as vertically with the same bracket.
Just be careful to put the wide part on the bottom when mounting vertically otherwise it might slide off if not fixed properly :lol:
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:13 am

It's a shame about the design - I am not sure my wife will allow that on the ceiling here, and that is where I would be testing my first one.

The original CAP AC, with the optional square housing, is tidy (both with round and square housing)

The "big ugly smoke alarm thing" as I call it to my customers, is something I hoped would be a thing of the past. I do like the mounting bracket design though.

The HAP got a new 'edgy' design. Shame the CAP didn't.

Nice to see progress on the hardware though. I've only fitted 10x EAP225 in the factory so far (I told the boss they were not expensive so it was not the 'final solution', and hopefully Mikrotik will release soon). Maybe I will get the 10-acre industrial site done with Mikrotik this year after all. It would help if I could actually purchase anything though (still looking for a CCR-something or RB5009 - no stock).
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:23 am

I hoped for a overhauled/refreshed design of "cAP ac". And not a 1:1 clone of "cAP xl". I would like to place it on a wall rather than on a ceiling. And that would look absolutely like garbish, having "a smoke detector" mounted on a wall.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:36 am

It just looks like a "DIY project box" rather than a professional product.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:41 am

The biggest issue with design is the size. If it would be half size you would have nice device.... it is the same as with hap AC/AX3. And if you see picture from inside CAP XL there is such a wasted space just make the device biger WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY. Mikrotik you should fire people responsible for design/SIZE of the device.....
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:41 am

Image

These comments about the size are ridiculous.

You want one dual ax device with 2x2 5.9dBi antenna gain to the same size of the mAP lite???
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:43 am

Image

These comments about the size are ridiculous.

You want one dual ax device with 2x2 5.9dBi antenna gain to the same size of the mAP lite???
No we want it slimmer and ideally a smaller diameter.
The option of a square housing again would be nice too, like original cAP AC
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:45 am

Do we need 5.9dBi antenna since the tx power is reduced with them?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:47 am

That you are one of those who believe that distance and sensitivity are only made by the power of the radio?

Cant' be slimmer for cooling inside, and can't have smaller diameter because "the free space" are reflectors for antennas.

The world is full of manufacturers, if you don't like the look, buy a more fashionable brand...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:51 am

Square housing of cAP AC has my preference.

And don't forget about Cap Lite.
That one also has a tiny rectangular housing. I prefer it much more then the round one as well.
(base board is more or less the same as mAP Lite)

I would think the square housing of cAP AC (or similar, adjusted for internal space) should be feasible for cAP AC XL and AX as well ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:51 am

That you are one of those who believe that distance and sensitivity are only made by the power of the radio?

Cant' be slimmer for cooling inside, and can't have smaller diameter because "the free space" are reflectors for antennas.

The world is full of manufacturers, if you don't like the look, buy a more fashionable brand...
Have you ever seen CAP XL from inside?????

Image
Last edited by Rox169 on Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:53 am

The world is full of manufacturers, if you don't like the look, buy a more fashionable brand...
or 3D print your own case :lol:
Drawings are available for cAP Lite so why not ?

Image
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:53 am

@Rox169

Yes, probably you not.
You probably didn't notice that the "free space" around the RouterBOARD is the reflectors for the antennas...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:56 am

That you are one of those who believe that distance and sensitivity are only made by the power of the radio?

Cant' be slimmer for cooling inside, and can't have smaller diameter because "the free space" are reflectors for antennas.
I'm just asking if they are really needed, if the end result is an ugly looking thing that raises questions about quality from the customers.

Perhaps they could make a 'long range' ugly version and a 'regular' version for the rest of us.

Or just make it prettier FFS. It's an ugly as sh*t design.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:57 am

@Rox169

Yes, probably you not.
You probably didn't notice that the "free space" around the RouterBOARD is the reflectors for the antennas...
Does it make any diffrence???? People has better signal with CAP AC than with CAP XL......
Last edited by Rox169 on Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 11:59 am

Does it any diffrence???? People has better signal with CAP AC than with CAP XL......
Not really.
I have both installed and XL is better.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:02 pm

@Rox169
Does it make any diffrence???? People has better signal with CAP AC than with CAP XL......
Have you tried it yourself, or do you read "other people's" problems instead?

Usually those who have problems write on the forums, I have rarely found someone who subscribes to the forum just to thanks, because it works better...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:11 pm

I did not tried CAP AC vs CAP XL because I would never buy such a ugly device as CAP XL...but I tried AX2 vs external antena AX3 and the signal is the same....
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:17 pm

Excuse me for saying this, but what a stupid way of thinking is that?
From the start you compared two different products: hAP ax² (int. 4.5/4dBi) with hAP ax³ whit external antenna(s?) (which?, the own 2.2/5.5dBi?),
then you didn't compare the hAP ac² with the hAP ax²,
and from this do you deduce that the cAP (XL?) ac «has better signal» than the cAP ax?
"Maybe it will be true", but it remains a stupid reasoning.
Last edited by rextended on Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:23 pm

Yes. Hap AX3 with original external antenna has same WiFi as hap ax2. I red poples comparison between cap AC and cap XL...the WiFi is the same some poeple has even better results with cap AC thorough two walls....
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:27 pm

(for the previous comparison, is normal, the hAP ax² have like twice, but not the "double", the dBi on 2,4GHz, against the hAP ax³)

You read also @holvoetn?
I don't comment on the product that should come out,
but in my comparison between cAP ac and cAP XL ac, the latter is better.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:43 pm

Sorry for bothering this nice discussion, but all the AX devices are also using much much more powerful CPUs and new wifi + new CPU also always means more heat. Big case is not for aesthetic reasons, but for cooling. I don't think it's possible to make AX devices in the size of cAP lite
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:44 pm

I did tested AX2 vs AX3 on 5,4 Ghz...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:45 pm

Sorry for bothering this nice discussion, but all the AX devices are also using much much more powerful CPUs and new wifi + new CPU also always means more heat. Big case is not for aesthetic reasons, but for cooling. I don't think it's possible to make AX devices in the size of cAP lite
Please make CAP AX..not only CAP XL AX and also hAP AX2 with USB :)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:46 pm

(and it was a stroke of genius to use the free space for the deflectors ;) )
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:56 pm

Sorry for bothering this nice discussion, but all the AX devices are also using much much more powerful CPUs and new wifi + new CPU also always means more heat. Big case is not for aesthetic reasons, but for cooling. I don't think it's possible to make AX devices in the size of cAP lite
Please make CAP AX..not only CAP XL AX and also hAP AX2 with USB :)
Hmm. Did you read what I wrote?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:21 pm

sorry...I realized now :) what you meant by lite...so at least we hope cAP AX will not be the same size as cAP XL :)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:29 pm

  • cap ac: Round case: ⌀ 136 mm, height: 30 mm; Square case: 145 mm x 145 mm x 30 mm
  • cap xl ac: 191 x 42 mm
  • hap ax2: 120 x 101 x 37 m
For the heat argument, I would like to add a serious question (I am not trolling or something):
Why can a hap ax2 with stronger cpu and new wifi fit into a 120x101 casing. Whereas a cap ax needs this large case like a cap xl ac. It can't be the "so much heat" then. Is it for better wifi coverage or something?

You probably didn't notice that the "free space" around the RouterBOARD is the reflectors for the antennas...
The posted image is probably showing the inside from a bad angle. I can't see anything other than plastic between the board and the antennas.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:37 pm

exactly...take hAP AX2, put into case cAP lite and remove 3ethers..save some money for development new PCB for cAP AX XL...now we have to put hAP AX2 put on the celing becasue smaller design and better look than the big wheel
Last edited by Rox169 on Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:39 pm

Why can a hap ax2 with stronger cpu and new wifi fit into a 120x101 casing. Whereas a cap ax needs this large case like a cap xl ac. It can't be the "so much heat" then. Is it for better wifi coverage or something?
AX2 has quite a lot of ventilation openings all around and will usually be standing vertical, even if placed horizontal there is the plastic foot to keep those openings free.
Cap AC XL (and AX) are always mounted on bottom side against a ceiling or wall. Less possibility to get heat out.
Especially when mounted against a ceiling, what direction do you think hot air travels ? Up.

So yes, it could indeed be because of heat dissipation.

PS true story: I used to work for a big telco manufacturer.
I've seen prototype test setups where the top assembly boards literally had their components MELT OFF because of dissipated heat from lower circuit boards.
Oops ...
Nice firework spectacle when those things drop on a powered board underneath, until the fuses blow :lol:
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:46 pm

You probably didn't notice that the "free space" around the RouterBOARD is the reflectors for the antennas...
The posted image is probably showing the inside from a bad angle. I can't see anything other than plastic between the board and the antennas.
On the picture, if you notice, the plastic ring have metal paint on the other side, and some is leaked from the process to the backside..
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:23 pm

who cares when the wifi is almost the same...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:45 pm

FCC has some good photos from inside. There you can see the mentioned reflector-foil (or whatever this is). Now I understand.

https://fccid.io/TV7CPGI52XL/Internal-P ... os-5337573

But I assume cAP XLs size was primarily for the extended range/coverage.

But a decent sized cAP ax with more ventilation holes than a cap ac - but with similar size - would have a fanbase.
Extended range could still be another product later on.

I can understand, why someone likes a compact case. When you see the devices side by side: https://youtu.be/_IGIKthVu4I?t=124
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:18 pm

Rextended check this video..there is guy who refers the same...cap AC has better wifi signal than cap XL....

https://youtu.be/_IGIKthVu4I?t=124
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 3:59 pm

On youtube you will also find videos of professionals who demonstrate that the earth is flat, or engineers who teach how to make electricity for free...

It doesn't matter, for me it's better the XL, and seeing that video doesn't change anything, and neither for @holvoetn I think.

And whatever happens are two other products that have absolutely nothing to do with this, it's just a waste of time.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:15 pm

I apologise for starting the fire. It is quite an ugly device though, compared to pretty much every competitor device.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:21 pm

Nobody forces you to buy this,
It's your choice!
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:25 pm

an ugly device though, compared to pretty much every competitor device.
what competitor?
if i search on google "ax ap" the first result is:

Image

Just a 16cm x ~3,3cm dish...

2cm less on diameter, same thikness but..
antenna gain on 2.4GHz only 2.8 dBi and on 5GHz only 3.0dBi.. just half dBi less (those are logaritmic numbers and the half mean 1/3 of the Watt)...
The cAP ax has double gain on both 2,4GHz (5.6dBi) and on 5GHz (5.4~6.0dBi based on frequency)

Therefore, compared to the "gain" of 2cm in diameter, the antennas of this competitor product are more "deaf" by 66.6...%

(the competitor device is AX1500, the cAP ax is AX1800)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 7:39 pm

what competitor?
if i search on google "ax ap" the first result is:
Therefore, compared to the "gain" of 2cm in diameter, the antennas of this competitor product are more "deaf" by 66.6...%
(the competitor device is AX1500, the cAP ax is AX1800)
gain is totally misleading in the context of a soho/enterprise AP.
gain is a factor of directionality and size.
when talking about a small AP like this, the bigging antenna size option isn't there.
so to have a higher gain cAP than UAP/U6 unit, you must have a more directional antenna. ie, more gain in one direction or plane and less gain in another. Placement and orientation becomes more critical.

There are ways to overcome this but not in a 2x2 design. In a 4x4 design you can make each antenna element more focused in a difference direction and use beamforming to get more signal out of the air, so 'artificial gain', but these are 2x2.

I've tested so so so many 'ax radios on the bench over the last year. 4x4 'ax designs are effectively +4dB real world and they are -4dB noise real world. That doesn't mean much when your signals are really good, but when your down in -70 to -90 suddenly that almost 8dB of SNR benefit is a dramatic difference. A U6-lite vs U6-enterprise with the some output levels and the same series radio but 2x2 vs 4x4 and I'm able to get 100Mbps on the U6-Enterprise where I can't get the U6-lite to stay connected. The U6-lite might as well be the cAP ax' direct competitor.

Long winded way of saying I and most people here shouldn't be nearly concerned about gain for a multi-AP system because it's not doing what they probably think it's doing. More cAPs with less gain and lower power output is the way.

I eagerly await some 4x4 designs. I have almost 100 U6-lites out there right now, but I've even replaced some with the U6-Pro and U6-Enterprise, the difference between 2x2 and 4x4 in a busy environment is unbelievable.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:10 pm

Unfortunate that it copied the cAP XL design, I also find it very ugly.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 12, 2023 9:09 pm

Unfortunate that it copied the cAP XL design, I also find it very ugly.
I aggree, I mean I don't think its 'bad' but I have had people comment that they look a bit cheap up close. The square body is a big improvement especially once ceilling mounted.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Jan 13, 2023 9:48 pm

Why can a hap ax2 with stronger cpu and new wifi fit into a 120x101 casing.
The hap ax2 case is completely open on one side, you are basically looking at the exposed black heatsink with only some hints of plastic casing around it.

But I agree that cap xl is not the prettiest thing.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:13 am

I eagerly await some 4x4 designs. I have almost 100 U6-lites out there right now, but I've even replaced some with the U6-Pro and U6-Enterprise, the difference between 2x2 and 4x4 in a busy environment is unbelievable.
I often met the case where I couldn't cover four rooms in a building in 5GHz band with UAP-AC-Lite as signals dropped bellow -70dB while located 8 to 10 m from AP, with walls in-between.
I was not aware 4x4 MU-MIMO could change things in such situations.
I'll give 4x4 MU-MIMO.

Thanks for mentioning this.

An other note, I observed some AP are quite sensitive to the way they are mounted. When wall-mounted, I had lower signals in some directions.
Does 4x4 MU-MIMO beamforming changes this ?
In other words, would you mount a 4x4 MU-MIMO AP on a wall or would you prefer to mount it on the ceiling ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:28 am

Who needs whole preceding post to be quoted to be answered? Use "Post Reply"
Yes, the mikrotik and ubiquiti 'saucer' models have patters that favor the horizontal plane and slightly away from the ceiling. Worse performance for wall mount. Always ceiling mount if possible.

4x4 radios simple have more antennas is a more omnidirectional pattern overall so should do a bit better. don't expect miracles, walls are walls.
Last edited by BartoszP on Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed excessive quotting of preceding post; be wise, quote smart, save network traffic
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:33 pm

Who needs whole preceding post to be quoted to be answered? Use "Post Reply"
So I should still look for a wall mount accessory, allowing horizontal mount on a wall.
Last edited by BartoszP on Tue Jan 17, 2023 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: removed excessive quotting of preceding post; be wise, quote smart, save network traffic
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:21 pm

4x4 radios simple have more antennas is a more omnidirectional pattern overall so should do a bit better.
Your words imply that antennae for MIMO are sector antennae each covering a share of space. But they aren't, all MIMO antennae cover same space (direction and beam width). This is true for beam forming, which is important part of massive MIMO (4x4 or higher order). Beam forming indeed increases signal strength and improves service quality.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 10:28 pm

Who needs whole preceding post to be quoted to follow the stream of descussion? Do you? Use "Post Reply"
No, in the U6 4x4 devices the antennas are pointed in separate directions. They cover more direct/focused area than the 2x2 units do. MUMIMO/MIMO extracts data from reflections and refractions that come in different angles on a mounce. All 4x4+ devices with fixed antennas are positioning those to have slightly different directionality because MUMIMO/MIMO functions on these reflections to identify data from noise. 4x4+ radios (again, with fixed antennas, not rubber ducks flailing around) are looking out in more directions and so have more even coverage as a necessary design feature of getting MIMO to work.
Last edited by BartoszP on Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: removed excessive quotting of preceding post; be wise, quote smart, save network traffic
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:11 pm

Disclaimer: I've worked as senior radio engineer for a major MNO for 15+ years. I was responsible for optimization of network coverage and performance of UMTS and LTE networks, so I believe I know sonething about antennae, MIMO, etc.

Vast majority of simple WiFi devices (such as SOHO APs) have omnidirectional antennae ... and their shape doesn't change this much. What adds to directivity is either addition of a reflective surface or m+having antenna groups. The former (use of reflective elements) is quite oftenly deployed in WiFi APs to create somehow directional radiation pattern which is necessary to get antenna gain anything above 2dBi (which is gain of basic antenna dipole; smaller antennae often included in smaller WiFi APs often have negative gain per-se).
Changing orientation of attached dipole antennae (which are often featured on mean looking famer APs) helps with MIMO performance ... not because they would change coverage, but because they can better receive the bouncing signals (and polarized signals).

Example of a two antennae group, which is often used as basis of group antenna is below. It shows two (fancy shaped) antennae, at angle of 90° for polarized 2x2 MIMO. One antenna consists of the two diagonally placed "squares" and if one looks carefully, it's possible to see how the two halves are connected. This antenna element, without any additional elements, is omnidirectional as much as antenna dipole (which doesn't radiate along the axis of dipole, hence usual use in vertical orientation).

When such antenna elements are used in panel antenna, antenna radiates in direction of photographer. Whole back of panel antenna is covered by (aluminum) reflective plate which also continues in sides of antenna - this gives basic directionality. Panel antennae often have pretty narrow beam in vertical direction (can be less than 10°), that's achieved by using several same antenna elements stacked vertically which all transmit at same phase (so feeder connections lengths have to be the same down to a fraction of hundreth of wavelength, at 2GHz that would be around one millimetre).

Image
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:42 am

Disclaimer: I've worked as senior radio engineer for a major MNO for 15+ years. I was responsible for optimization of network coverage and performance of UMTS and LTE networks, so I believe I know sonething about antennae, MIMO, etc.

Vast majority of simple WiFi devices (such as SOHO APs) have omnidirectional antennae ... and their shape doesn't change this much.
@mkx:
Would you require yourself to mount 4x4 AP horizontally or rely on 4x4 beamforming and mount them vertically on walls ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:10 pm

I'd rely on beamforming. "Static" 4x4 MIMO only works if client(s) also support 4x4 MIMO but most of them don't. Having AP capable of 4x4 MIMO does slightly help with 2x2 clients because AP can use "space diversity" for slight improvement of that 2x2MIMO (in both directions) but improvement us nowhere near what 4x4 can do.
MU-MIMO with beamforming also has to be supported by clients, but chance of supporting that is much higher ... because for 4x4 MIMO some real estate is necessary (in form of multiple antennae, whatever shape they might be), while support of MU-MIMO and beamforming on client side is done in software (run by Rx DSP).
Beamforming might seem similar to the "space diversity" thing mentioned in previous paragraph, but it's actually much better. For two reasons: AP can focus energy better so SINR increase is much higher ... and AP can serve more than one client at the same time - that's the MU part of MU-MIMO (stands for Multi User). Number of concurrently served clients is not unlimited, sum of all streams is limited by MIMO order supported by AP. E.g. 4x4 AP can theoretically support 2 2x2 clients or 4 single chain clients or 2 single chain plus one 2x2 clients.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:28 pm

A U6-lite vs U6-enterprise with the some output levels and the same series radio but 2x2 vs 4x4 and I'm able to get 100Mbps on the U6-Enterprise where I can't get the U6-lite to stay connected.
On a side note, U6-Enterprise has one 2.5GbE RJ45 port (PoE in).
A Mikrotik switch with 2.5 Gb/s and PoE capability would be welcome to power such 4x4 MU-MIMO devices.
For WiFi deployments, I think low port count (8 or so) with one or two versatile uplink (SFP+) would make sense.

Back to cAP subject, would you sacrifice some features (throughput, ...) to be able to daisy chain two cAP ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:33 pm

Back to cAP subject,

My 5 cents: I wouldn't like to sacrifice anything. But then: if two APs are needed for coverage and there will only be a few users roaming between both, then chance of many users needing full speed at the same time is small and daisy-chaining will not degrade user experience (by much). However, if there are many active users, chance of congestion on ethernet uplink gets higher. If things are more like the former case, but with good chances to turn towards the later case, then do the future proof solution and avoid daisy chaining. It's likely that newer AP devices will become more and more power hungry and if one wants to power them using PoE, this is also reason to go for star-like wired infrastructure.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:07 am

During latest CES, I read one vendor unveiled two WiFi7 devices: one device with a single "10G PoE++" port, the other with two "10G PoE++" !
I never heard of so-called 10G PoE++ (10 Gb/s and PoE++ over copper, I suppose) nor bonding two of them while 2.5Gb/s with is still hard to find these days.

Anyway, a cAP ax with 4x4 MU-MIMO, over a single 1Gb/s with any kind of 802.3 PoE would fine for me.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:40 am

Sorry to ruin your fun with criticizing the design of cAP ax, but so far we have only a single drawing of the backside of it, that indicates it probably will be round, and it probably uses the same (or very similar) mounting mechanism to the cAP XL ac. All posted photos are of cAP XL ac, not of cAP ax and the drawing (attached below) shows slightly different design of the backside of cAP ax (cAP XL ac has no vents on the bottom and only 2 screws, while drawing of cAP ax shows vents around the edge and 4 screw holes).

We don't know how it will look like from the top. We don't know if it'll have some alternative casing like cAP ac does. We just have that drawing.
Screenshot_20230203_233828.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:20 pm

...
We don't know how it will look like from the top. We don't know if it'll have some alternative casing like cAP ac does. We just have that drawing.
We have also two months old real view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz1AUgoFjCo&t=1019s
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:18 pm

Hi, any news? Any picture?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sat Feb 25, 2023 4:08 am

@Normis

What is the expected release date for the CAP AX AP and preliminary spec sheet?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:26 am

I've been wanting to add another AP but decided to hold out for the eventual AX version.

@normis
While keeping it the same size would be nice, if its not possible then so be it.
I do ask for the continued square cover option, as it looks much better on a wall.
My intent is to swap this out into my main room, but a big round disk will be a no go.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sun Mar 05, 2023 1:40 pm

With all the effort they put into antenna design, antenna radiation pattern is not spherical, it's torroidal (doughnut shaped). Which means that it does matter how device is mounted. If it's fit for ceiling mount it's not as fit for wall mount. Well, it can be done, but coverage won't be good in certain directions (orthogonal to the wall) and energy is wasted in certain other directions (vertical - towards floor and ceiling).
The above is not a huge problem if antenna gain is low (e.g. below 3dBi) but becomes larger as gain gets higher (current ax offering by MT has antenna gains around 4dBi-5dBi).
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed Mar 08, 2023 10:11 am

I hope it doesn't look like hAP XL :(
Anyone who wants to put this in an ideal place in their apartment would definitely appreciate it if it looked more fancy.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:56 pm

 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:46 pm

*double info* sorry
Last edited by bpwl on Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:53 pm

Sorry, and the news? :?:
The link is on OP...
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Mar 14, 2023 10:59 pm

I hope it doesn't look like hAP XL :(
Anyone who wants to put this in an ideal place in their apartment would definitely appreciate it if it looked more fancy.
You mean cAP XL ac ? hAP XL doesn't exist (yet ?) :lol:
From the document describing label info, I assume it will have the same package as cAP XL ac (looks like same outside dimensions and same bracket to attach).
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Mar 21, 2023 11:57 pm

Im following this i plan to buy 3 of the new cAP AX to my house project.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:57 pm

 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Mar 23, 2023 3:53 pm

I don’t see how this can sit in my living room ceiling. Way way too big.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:41 pm

There is a reason why this was called the "cap ac XL"

So this must be the "cap ax XL"

Give me a nudge when the regular cap ax is released. Or the "cap ax mini" if it has to be.

I got my hands on some hap ax² finally today. Feels and looks nice. Compact and solid.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:21 am

I think there will not be a lite version. MT decided to use full potential of the processor and it has to be cool down so this is the reason of the size. I'm just wondering if is it at least a bit smaller than cap XL ac
Last edited by Rox169 on Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:45 am

Seems lazy, and a missed opportunity, using that same crappy housing. I felt uncomfortable installing cap ac XL all the time. I was always apologising and explaining the big ugly smoke alarm thing. Shouldn't have to do that. Had no problem with the original cap ac. Thankfully these were only under till in coffee shops. It just doesn't look professional.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:09 am

My only beef with the size of the unit is that it's very large (228mm) for only a 2x2 MIMO. Unifi fit 4x4 MIMO into a smaller footprint (197mm). If "long range" is intended then the direct comparison would be the Unifi U6 LR which is 220mm across but it's 4x4 MIMO.

So yes, I think this is a bit of an error here on Mikrotik's part unless they are being extremely conservative with heat dissipation. Certainly, I've had Unifi APs which cooked themselves but it's been a while and I don't know if they still have that issue.

I am not concerned about the lack of 4x4 MIMO as such. Most folks don't really have a clear understanding of when 4x4 is actually going to benefit them or not. And when you DO have a clear understanding of it, you're less likely to be bothered by it if you were already going for mass coverage of wide areas with lots of APs.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 7:58 am

cAP XL and cAP AX have completely different enclosures, carl0s
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:28 am

@Normis
it could be me but in the PDF which describes cAP AX, it seems to me the mounting bracket (from cap AC ?) is not correct versus the picture where the 2 eth ports are shown (looks like the same mounting method as cap XL ac) ?
Is the mounting bracket really the metal plate instead of something similar as the plastic triangle used for XL ?

EDIT: just noticed, probably copy-paste error from cap XL ac because it's wrong in that PDF too.
I've already seen enough XLs to know that's NOT the mounting bracket shipped with it.
https://i.mt.lv/cdn/product_files/cAPXLac_230129.pdf
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 8:54 am

cAP XL and cAP AX have completely different enclosures, carl0s
Oh. I will keep quiet until I've bought one then :-)
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:34 am

 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 9:38 am

I see now, it's slimmer, flatter. Apologies. I'll get a few from Getic when they get stock.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:02 am

Mikrotik's part unless they are being extremely conservative with heat dissipation. Certainly, I've had Unifi APs which cooked themselves but it's been a while and I don't know if they still have that issue.
UniFi APs are based on MediaTek MT7621 and MT7622, cAP ax is on a higher level in specs!
Before criticizing the appearance should be tested.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 10:25 am

My only beef with the size of the unit is that it's very large (228mm) for only a 2x2 MIMO. Unifi fit 4x4 MIMO into a smaller footprint (197mm). If "long range" is intended then the direct comparison would be the Unifi U6 LR which is 220mm across but it's 4x4 MIMO.

So yes, I think this is a bit of an error here on Mikrotik's part unless they are being extremely conservative with heat dissipation. Certainly, I've had Unifi APs which cooked themselves but it's been a while and I don't know if they still have that issue.

I am not concerned about the lack of 4x4 MIMO as such. Most folks don't really have a clear understanding of when 4x4 is actually going to benefit them or not. And when you DO have a clear understanding of it, you're less likely to be bothered by it if you were already going for mass coverage of wide areas with lots of APs.
@all:
Sorry to somehow hijack this thread topic
@Kaldek:
For which use case would you prefer 4x4 MIMO APs, then ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:22 pm

For which use case would you prefer 4x4 MIMO APs, then ?
If I was completely stuck with only one access point, and I had a 2Gbs+ Internet link, and many wireless clients, then I'd want 4x4.

As it is, one AP has never been able to cover my entire house. With 3 teenage boys who all need streaming throughput and low jitter, I deployed four cAP ac access points.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:27 pm

cAP is not really intended as the "only router in your house", but sure, you can use it for that.
But normally I would suggest hAP in such a case. cAP is more for large networks and CAPsMAN.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 24, 2023 3:45 pm

I have a Hap ax^2 and would like to extend my WiFi with a cAP ax WiFi-6 Device. Will roaming work between both of these devices. Also does this make sense for a home network or would I be better off buying an RB5009 and 2XcAP ax's even though I only have a 200MB connection.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sat Mar 25, 2023 12:59 am

Whoa, just saw this. I was really needing a wifi refresh. The circular design looks nice. Would like it smaller, but I understand the antenna requirements require it.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:43 am

I understand the antenna requirements require it...
Well @normis said...
Sorry for bothering this nice discussion, but all the AX devices are also using much much more powerful CPUs and new wifi + new CPU also always means more heat. Big case is not for aesthetic reasons, but for cooling. I don't think it's possible to make AX devices in the size of cAP lite
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:22 am

cAP is not really intended as the "only router in your house", but sure, you can use it for that.
But normally I would suggest hAP in such a case. cAP is more for large networks and CAPsMAN.
And large houses. Don't make me feel bad for having 4 x cAP ac!
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Mon Mar 27, 2023 2:13 pm

Listed at the first distributor! Estimated availability: End of May. :-|
 
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pcunite
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:45 pm

Posted to MikroTik site now. Good to see the metal bracket.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Mar 30, 2023 11:49 pm

Ah yes, that bracket makes totally sense !
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Mar 31, 2023 12:17 am

Hi,

do we have picture from inside?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu Apr 27, 2023 7:58 pm

cAP is not really intended as the "only router in your house", but sure, you can use it for that.
But normally I would suggest hAP in such a case. cAP is more for large networks and CAPsMAN.
How's Wi-Fi 6E coming? I would love to get my hands on some wAP form factor Wi-Fi6E units for industrial shop floor clients. Even if the 6Ghz functionality isn't unlocked via firmware yet, to have the chipset and form-factor for AX period would be great.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Wed May 10, 2023 6:51 pm

Maybe stupid question, but how do I use metal "ceiling bracket" ?
I need to mount cAP ax on drywall ceiling. Do I attach plastic ceiling mount only or do I attach plastic ceiling mount and metal ceiling bracket together ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu May 11, 2023 4:20 pm

Bought 3 cAP ax, all three on 7.8 factory version.
I have same issue on all 3 - example :
Private-wlan5 disconnected, key handshake timeout, signal strength -55
I've had the same issue on hAP ax2 when I upgraded it to 7.9, but problems disappeared after reverting back to 7.8.

I'm not sure what is the problem, same security profile as on other ax products. It's not frequency problem, when I remove password everyhting is working like it should. I have no clue how to fix it.
Usually I use WPA2 but tired to enable WPA3 also, but no change.
Last edited by Matta on Thu May 11, 2023 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu May 11, 2023 4:25 pm

Maybe stupid question, but how do I use metal "ceiling bracket" ?
I need to mount cAP ax on drywall ceiling. Do I attach plastic ceiling mount only or do I attach plastic ceiling mount and metal ceiling bracket together ?
For drywall you need only drywall anchor and plastic bracket. The metal bracket is for suspended ceiling tiles, you put the metal bracket on other side of the ceiling tile.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu May 11, 2023 4:45 pm

Matta, the error you are seing is most likely fixed in newest v7.10 beta. Try to upgrade and let us know if it helps.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu May 11, 2023 5:28 pm

Matta, the error you are seing is most likely fixed in newest v7.10 beta. Try to upgrade and let us know if it helps.
Thanks for the help Normis !
All 3 units upgraded and I can confirm that they working properly with 7.10b5.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Thu May 18, 2023 8:48 pm

Matta, the error you are seing is most likely fixed in newest v7.10 beta. Try to upgrade and let us know if it helps.
Thanks for the help Normis !
All 3 units upgraded and I can confirm that they working properly with 7.10b5.
Update,
I stand corrected.
Same thing is happening with 7.10beta (maybe in lesser extent). What helped (and is helping) is daily reboot.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:47 pm



Thanks for the help Normis !
All 3 units upgraded and I can confirm that they working properly with 7.10b5.
Update,
I stand corrected.
Same thing is happening with 7.10beta (maybe in lesser extent). What helped (and is helping) is daily reboot.
yeah, same.. viewtopic.php?t=196739
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sun Jun 11, 2023 3:00 pm

Figures
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:04 am

Just bought two cAP ax routers. Factory software v.7.8. Set up two SSIDs: mikrotik-2G and Mikrotik-5G. Everything was alright. Then upgraded to v.7.12: 5GHz radio (and SSID Mikrotik-5G) is gone. Cannot detect it at all with latest phone. Upgraded to latest rc - no help.
Tried the second one - exactly the same.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:06 am

What frequency is the AP using and are you 200% sure your device is able to use it ?
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:14 am

It's Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra 5G. And with 7.9 was ~800Mb/s
Now AP shows 5GHz time to time (sometime without authentication) And I use APs in Cap mode.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:35 am

Tried the second one - exactly the same.
Open a new topic and place the config of both devices:
/export file=anynameyoulike
Remove serial and any other private information and place in between code tags by use of the </> button.

My expectation: it is set to a DFS channel which will be scanned for either 1 or 10 minutes befor becoming available.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 10:40 am

You probably right, It's frequency. Will post more info tomorrow, it's too late.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Dec 08, 2023 8:31 pm

You probably right, It's frequency. Will post more info tomorrow, it's too late.

I'm curious too. Let us know findings.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Sat Dec 09, 2023 6:13 am

Set Max frequency to 5825 (cut last 3 indoor channels) and skip DFS channels. That fixed my problem.
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Jan 26, 2024 4:55 pm

Hi,

may I ask what's the maximum distance in meters that allow a client to reach the wifi6 network of a cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD?
i.e. competitor says 140 m² (1,500 ft²) coverage

Thanks, BR
 
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Re: MikroTik cAP ax [cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD] (r2)

Fri Jan 26, 2024 5:05 pm

Depends on the environment, metal postings, walls, structure of the walls, material used, ...

140m2 is 10mx14m or about ? Without obstacles, easily.

I have e.g. a setup with cap AX in a meeting room about 15m away from my office, I can JUST not connect to it but there is a thick brick wall in between and 2 plaster walls with metal structures.

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