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WirelessRudy
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:41 am

You are wrong as many say so,..

if there is no water on the dish and radiator [feeder] means a much more stable link, because we have a very focused beam.

The same is how you set up a shield for powerbeam, it works much better and more stable than without a shield/radom...
I think the fact that some radio energy might be diffracted due water drop on the dish or feeder is in no relation toward the attenuation due distance and especially if this distance has to be bridge through millions of rain drop where the dish and feeder will only have some... And shielding is not needed for the high frequencies since 60Ghz virtually has no sidelobs you want to suppress.

In 5Ghz even with a shield signal 'leaks' to the sides. Put another 5Ghz radio 10 meters away and aside of the best dish plus shield in the market and you still pickup considerable signal.
Do the same with a 60Ghz radio and you don't even see any signal anymore.
I have 4 wAP60G AP's in a mast all facing in their 90 degree sector only 1 meter apart and they already hardly can see each other. Only long run (minutes) scans see some signals in the range of 20 or less and dissapears.
I can't even connect a client unit at 20 meters away to get it to connect to an AP that he looks from aside.
Any 5Ghz CPE antenna I can connect at even 50 meters away from a RF-Elements cone (these are supposed to be top of the bill antennas with near 100% side lob suppression).

Shielding or covering 60Ghzs in my humble opinion gives very marginal effects. Probably not even measurable. The attenuation is the killer here and no matter how big the dish is, you can only focus that much signal, and you can only catch signals that reaches you.

A slightly bigger dish as the standard 33cm LHG might do something but it needs a special LNB further away from the focal point otherwise the other part of the dish is not doing anything for sending. Only for receiving.
So your picture of the LHG lnb just mount on a bigger dish doesn't do nothing.

If you think otherwise do some real tests with similar conditions etc. and show us.
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cwachs
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:03 am

It is my understanding (from a hardware manufacturer) that the Mikrotik 60 Ghz radios have hardware that can handle channels 1 and 2. Channels 3 and 4 are done by stretching that hardware with software, so to speak. The chip used in the IgniteNet hardware is designed for channels 1-4 and channel 5 (upcoming in firmware) will be stretched in software. That may account for your differences in RSSI between the vendors - if you are using channels 3 or 4.

We have noticed that with links around 700m. We get much better performance with Mikrotik gear using channels 1 or 2. Our link was not usable in channel 4 - which should be the best channel for distances.

We have a number of radios from both vendors installed. The IgniteNets are solid through decent rain storms and I really like the 5GHz fail over - but the throughput is better through a Mikrotik link. I have a hard time beating 700 Mbps real world throughput with IN gear but can push 1 Gbps with MK gear.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am

Just a few thoughts ...
  1. antenna size VS. side lobes and gain: what actually matters is antenna dimension in terms of wave length multiples. Speaking about dishes, it's diameter versus wavelength. As I don't have any 60G systems around, I'll assume that 222mm is dish diameter. With wavelength of 5 mm, the antenna dimension is around 44 wavelengths. To have same "apparent" dish size at 5GHz, it'd have to be around 2.6 metres in diameter. As most of them are not that big (Dynadish 5 is 404 mm in diameter which is a bit less than 7 wavelengths), the beam is not as focused ... wider main beam and stronger side lobes.
    Shielding does help to prevent too much of side lobes to escape ... but it doesn't help increasing power transmitted in main direction, hence no change in antenna gain.
    BTW, same effect (length of antenna expressed in wavelengths) occurs also with antennae usually deployed in mobile networks (e.g. LTE), which are vertical dipole groups ... the longer (vertically) antenna (usually consists of more dipoles), the narrower (vertically) beam width.
  2. use of larger dishes: it does't have to be that LNB is further away from the dish for larger dishes. It does have to be in dish's focus where ever that might be. Dish, being parabolic, can have focus at the same point regardless of outer dimensions if the dish is "cut out of same parabola".
  3. water on grille: grille dimensions (grid mesh distance, diameter of conductive core of mesh, ...) should be calculated and produced very carefully as it affects the antenna characteristics. E.g. if grid mesh distance is smaller, the dish will work better with higher-frequency signals (think of Faraday cage). If diameter of conductive core of mesh is bigger, it will work for slightly wider frequency band but will loose some gain and its slope of "out of band" gain drop will be slightly lower (i.e. side band suppression will be slightly worse). If there's water on grille (and keeping in mind water is unfortunately slightly conductive), it will act as if the conductive core mesh was slightly thicker (but not as much as the water layer thickness) ... normally (due to low amount of water) it will not affect the antenna performance much. The other problem with water is that it represents another layer of material with different index of refraction, which, in practice, causes slight wave dispersion ... again loss of focus "sharpness".
  4. radio performance: every transmitter (or rather, power amplifier) has certain bandwidth where amplifier's gain is more or less linear with frequency, and the gain drops outside this optimal bandwidth. It is kind of design parameter but manufacturing process can affect this as well. Performance outside of this optimal bandwidth is still possible, but TX power is lower and linearity (over whole, say, 1GHz channel) is worse. It's worth noting that extremely wide-band power amplifiers are complex to construct and typically much less power-effective ... Also a design parameter is placing filters so that even spurious transmissions will not get transmitted outside legally allowed band (e.g. outside 2400-2483.5 MHz in 2.4GHz ISM in U.S.). Those filters were traditionally implemented in hardware (e.g. some LC conduits) while in modern times developers try to implement them in software (think SDR) making changes in supported transmit frequencies easier (at cost of having lower Tx power in parts that are outside optimal hardware performance) ...
    Similar story goes with receivers (band pass filters in hardware, RX windows in software, PA gain, ...). It is, however, easier to construct a wide-band receiver (partially due to it's low-power nature) than a good wide-band transmitter.
    So it might seem that Mikrotik's implementation of 60GHz transmitter lacks linearity in upper part of 60GHz band, but this might improve with new chip revisions.
    Note that when speaking of wide-band power amplifiers, there are actually two things to consider: a) capability to transmit signal in wide frequency band and b) capability to transmit wide frequency channel. Example of a) is transmission anywhere inside 2.4000-2.4835GHz band (83.5MHz wide) versus transmission inside 4.910-5.875GHz band (965MHz wide). Example of b) is transmission of 10MHz wide channel versus transmission of 160MHz wide channel inside the 5GHz ISM band. This usually comes with limitation of total transmitted energy which is more or less evenly distributed over TX bandwidth ... meaning that signal strength (as measured on, say, single OFDM tone) is 16- times (12 dB) lower when transmitted in 160MHz wide channel than when transmitted in 10MHz wide channel ... both when transmitted at full PA power (let's say it's 1W per spatial stream).
BR,
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Bergante
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:00 am

I think the fact that some radio energy might be diffracted due water drop on the dish or feeder is in no relation toward the attenuation due distance and especially if this distance has to be bridge through millions of rain drop where the dish and feeder will only have some... And shielding is not needed for the high frequencies since 60Ghz virtually has no sidelobs you want to suppress.
Anyway, remember that the wavelength is tiny :)

I would try spraying the unit with something that could make it water repellent. PTFE (Teflon®) lubricant might be effective. I would give it a test just in case. ;)
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:04 am

I think the fact that some radio energy might be diffracted due water drop on the dish or feeder is in no relation toward the attenuation due distance and especially if this distance has to be bridge through millions of rain drop where the dish and feeder will only have some... And shielding is not needed for the high frequencies since 60Ghz virtually has no sidelobs you want to suppress.
Anyway, remember that the wavelength is tiny :)

I would try spraying the unit with something that could make it water repellent. PTFE (Teflon®) lubricant might be effective. I would give it a test just in case. ;)
Such a procedure will not help you in front of the frost and especially against the rime: P
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Bergante
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:12 am

Such a procedure will not help you in front of the frost and especially against the rime: P
If it's hydrophobic enough it will really impede the build up of ice because the droplets won't stick. At least it could delay it.

Note that I haven't invented it, it's been studied before of course.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a125689.pdf

And maybe a silicone based lubricant would work better. I see that there are specific products designed for this purpose as well. Vellox is
mentioned in the previous study.

https://urgentcomm.com/2006/02/17/vello ... h-coating/

The experiment with silicone or PTFE based lubricant would be really cheap to do anyway. And Vellox doesn't seem to be too expensive either.

As a plus, it will help delay the build up of dirt which can be troublesome. Especially near industrial areas there some of the dirt may be slightly conductive.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:48 pm

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DJ VOLT:: when you make a 600mm antenna ?
Please, treat us all
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:42 pm

I would try spraying the unit with something that could make it water repellent. PTFE (Teflon®) lubricant might be effective. I would give it a test just in case. ;)
Yeah but you have to renew the coating every few weeks... I can't say I would be looking forward to it especially as it's most needed when it's cold and damp.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:38 pm

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DJ VOLT:: when you make a 600mm antenna ?
Please, treat us all
Using our parabola 680 mm Jirous JRMB-680-24 with electronic from LHG 60 is unfortunately not good solution. Our parabola is deep (f/D=0,17) and LHG 60 for standard parabola (approx. f/D=0,35), so the radio is able to use only small part of parabola.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:15 pm

To all:

We started work on the 600mm set. We already have ready-made dishes, covers, we only have to make a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.

I will take photos next week ...

Who needs such upgrades and how many pieces? Please write to PM ...
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autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:53 pm

To all:

We started work on the 600mm set. We already have ready-made dishes, covers, we only have to make a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.

I will take photos next week ...

Who needs such upgrades and how many pieces? Please write to PM ...
>>>a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.<<<
Why Aluminum
Plastic is better
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:01 pm

To all:

We started work on the 600mm set. We already have ready-made dishes, covers, we only have to make a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.

I will take photos next week ...

Who needs such upgrades and how many pieces? Please write to PM ...
which Parabolic dish is using?,
which ratio f/D=?
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:34 pm

The same as original dish from lhg60 so the same as our alu dish 400mm but with bigger dish 600mm, all the same f/D ratio :)

alu electronic holder because also will be use for system cooling...
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:12 pm

To all:

We started work on the 600mm set. We already have ready-made dishes, covers, we only have to make a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.

I will take photos next week ...

Who needs such upgrades and how many pieces? Please write to PM ...
+1
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:17 pm

alu electronic holder because also will be use for system cooling...
how will the ALU affect the passing of the signal from FEED to DISH ?

The ALU or metal can create a reflection
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:21 pm

The same as in original LHG60, also is ALU cooling system :D

Our will be slightly different so there will be less interference :P
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autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:42 am

great information
I can not wait
1+
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:21 pm

what are the new experiences ?
with the new 6.44RC40 version
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 08, 2018 5:07 am

To all:

We started work on the 600mm set. We already have ready-made dishes, covers, we only have to make a special handle for electronics with LHG60 made of aluminum.

I will take photos next week ...

Who needs such upgrades and how many pieces? Please write to PM ...
The weekend passed ;)
where are the pictures?
Where's the antenna?
Please, any Info
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:06 pm

Some photo of project that is still modified :)
DSCF2690.JPG
DSCF2689.JPG
DSCF2687.JPG
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:03 pm

Some photo of project that is still modified :)
Looks great!

It would be perfect to have a fair real life comparison of your devices like:

xxx meters, rainy day, perfect aligned systems, rssi and phys rate with:

- LHG60G
- LHG60G with alu dish
- LHG60G with alu dish and abs cover
- Custom 60G on WAP basis 40 cm
- Custom 60G on WAP basis 60 cm
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:57 am

Bravo BRAVO
Congratulations
when the test results will be LHG 60 VS DjVolt ALU-600mm
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:02 am

What is an antenna?
the holder was made on a 3d printer.
how much is this material resistant to sun and rain ?

please more picture
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am

What is an antenna?
the holder was made on a 3d printer.
how much is this material resistant to sun and rain ?

please more picture
This is only for the tests, because we have second proposition that we preparing :P

Mainly the material of the LHG60 holder will be made with ABS+UV. The whole electronic and antenna will be in hermetic enclosure because, we have also front covers for this antennas :)

More info and pictures will be soon.

The antenna have outer diameter 600mm, inner diameter is 556mm with 80mm flange..

After made the holders etc we will do the tests for 1500 meters to check signals and compare with our 400 dishes with mounted wAP60G.

We please be patient :P Everything is under control :D
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:10 am

Some photo of project that is still modified :)
Looks great!

It would be perfect to have a fair real life comparison of your devices like:

xxx meters, rainy day, perfect aligned systems, rssi and phys rate with:

- LHG60G
- LHG60G with alu dish
- LHG60G with alu dish and abs cover
- Custom 60G on WAP basis 40 cm
- Custom 60G on WAP basis 60 cm
[/quote]

GOOD 1+
 
autostoper76
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:19 am


More info and pictures will be soon.
Please DJ Volt more info
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:26 am

lelelelelele :D more info is it :D

From the other side...

https://trzepak.pl/viewtopic.php?f=26&t ... 45#p500245
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:56 am

lelelelelele :D more info is it :D

From the other side...

https://trzepak.pl/viewtopic.php?f=26&t ... 45#p500245
+1 for ALU 600

I just ordered an ALU 400 Link + Radom , yesterday
I expect to arrive soon
I'm reporting TEST results
 
djvolt1942
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:24 am

Were sent yesterday with Shields and precision holders to our Business Partner :P
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:32 am

More info and pictures will be soon.


Please DJ Volt more info... more picture

more test ....
please
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:56 pm

More details at now...
lhg60-600mm-1.jpg
lhg60-600mm.jpg
Please tell me how to run a LAN cable, we have a hole 27mm at back of the dish, feeder have also the hole, maybe do you have back cable mount via feeder to LAN port of the LHG60 electronic?

Maybe other solution? I'm waiting for answers and maybe solutions? :)
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