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WirelessRudy
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:50 am

Please keep in mind that stated 1.5km range is with including weather factors.
We have a Wap 60G client connected to a Wap 60G basestation since last week. Distance 204 meters. (Only one other client to this AO at 50 meters).
mcs 4
phy-rate:1155.0Mbps
signal : 40
rssi :-69
tx-sector : 28
tx-sector-info: left 3.8 degrees, down 3.8 degrees
rx-sector : 96

I can 'pump' some 400+mbps over the link so that is fine. But rain fade is an issue. We've had a good but moderate rain shower over weekend and the link dropped a couple of times during this. As soon the severity took off it came back. Actually by the signal I could see the shower increasing or decreasing in its intensity.
This was not a shower like a tropical downpour, we still had some 1000 or more meters visibility. But it shows that these little brothers are effected by serious rain if on the edge of their reach.
The other units at 50mtrs didn't even drop in signal.

I am sure as soon as we have some 60G LHG we can replace this little one by its bigger sister and we have no more rain issue on this link....
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:18 pm

I have prrtty much same problem. Water is a big issue. This weekend signal dropped by 23dBm on 400m. I didnt get my hands on lhg60 yet ( not on stock ) but it seems that signal can drop over 50dBm on 1km. I am using dish with radom. Maybe water on radom is that problem... I dont know. Does anyone has data from lhg in bigger rain?

I also have another question on mikrotik. Are you planning any kind of improvements on ptmp? It works kinda like 802.11b.... More clients = slower speed. Also do you have any plans for backed up lhg with 5GHz?
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:36 pm

water on radome cover will affect link quality a lot more than water covering parabolic dish.

PTMP improvements will be added in upcoming versions.
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:32 pm

water on radome cover will affect link quality a lot more than water covering parabolic dish.

PTMP improvements will be added in upcoming versions.
Hello,
we have a test LHG ptp link 850m and it's light rain now and i don't see rain impact, data like in sunny day, see data below

interface w60g monitor wlan60-1
connected: yes
frequency: 62640
remote-address: deleted-mac
mcs: 8
phy-rate: 2.3Gbps
signal: 80
rssi: -61
tx-sector: 15
tx-sector-info: right 1.4 degrees, down 1 degrees
rx-sector: 96
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:49 pm

signal: 80
rssi: -61
tx-sector: 15
tx-sector-info: right 1.4 degrees, down 1 degrees
rx-sector: 96
Would be nice to get some better explanation on these data (I am not talking the values!)
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:56 pm

signal: 80
rssi: -61
tx-sector: 15
tx-sector-info: right 1.4 degrees, down 1 degrees
rx-sector: 96
Would be nice to get some better explanation on these data (I am not talking the values!)
Yes, that would be good, because now i guess.
Mikrotik Team, please add to wiki the meaning of values and max min possible values also.
 
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jainge
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:23 pm

More background info on the LHG G60 Project in Hawaii.

It is located on the island of Oahu, within the city of Honolulu. - - So, no Volcanoes, the active volcanoes you are seeing in the news are located in a very small area on the island of Hawaii about 363 Kilometers (225 Miles) away.

The ends of the links are located in an area that is East of the beach resort area known as Waikiki. - - So, it is not in a Tropoical Rain Forest. The Rain Forest areas on Oahu are up higher and behind the mountains you see in the background.

One end is located on a 4.6m tall Non-Penetrating Mast located on a 6m tall roof section of the “Waikiki Shell” (a music/concert venue). This is the end that I was pictured with when installing the LHGG60.

The other end was mounted on a transportable testing mast that was located atop a 25-Story building called "Fairway House".
Image

Light rain has had minimal effect.

In all fairness, the alignment on the Waikiki Shell unit is slightly off by about 2º~3º, however, it performs very well on sunny days. As this is a secured government owned facility, I have to make special arrangements to determine when I can be up on that rooftop. For the past few weeks there have been University and High School Graduation events being held there and I have not been able to work out a time for me to be up there. Now that those events have subsided, I hope to get up there in the next week - - Any body that happens to be in Honolulu/Waikiki at that time is welcome to join me for the site visit.

There has not yet been what I would consider a "Heavy Rain" event in this area as yet... I'm waiting for a "Cats and Dogs" or "Tropical Storm" Heavy Rain event to run extensive testing.

From everything I have read on the subject, the 60GHz frequency is more limited due to Oxygen absorption than rain fade.

Snow??? Not at this location... Snow DOES occur in Hawaii, however, only at the much higher elevations found on the mountains located on the island of Hawaii and Maui during the winter months.

Fortunately, the Waikiki Shell venue is an Outdoor Venue, and as such is a perfect test site as it would not be a major concern if there were a drop of bandwidth during heavy rains... I think they would close the facility, cancel any performances and/or not be in full operation during heavy rains.

The unit I received was perhaps an early release, or early production unit off the assembly line, with the original (typical) Signal Strength LEDs. The New RouterOS release candidate firmware upgrades the LHGG60 allowing the top five(5) LEDs to indicate a Minimal connection and Left, Right, Down and Up indicators. I believe that the plan is to have a sticker similar to the one shown below applied to the later LHGG60 units to indicate which LED will be for Left, Right, Down and Up.
Image

While I await the approval to access the Waikiki Shell mast, I have moved the LHGG60 unit that was located on a small transportable tripod mast atop Fairway House to a permanent 60mm diameter steel pipe mast that has been installed between the floor and ceiling on the balcony right outside my 25th floor window. This will give me easier access to the unit at all hours of the day, not just when I was allowed to go up on the roof by the building manager. - - I will therefore be able to make alignment changes, updates and performance tests anytime I wish.
Last edited by jainge on Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:26 am

@jainge; Thanks for that info. Interesting tourist info too!

Anyway, it gives me the 'feeling' you actually had some early test versions / versions for test purposes only. How come? All the way in Hawaii? Did the Mikrotik guys happen to be there on holiday and had 2 of these units in their suitcase?
Together with the fact I haven't seen any posts from nobody yet, apart from some statements from Mikrotik crew, it seems these units are not out in the field yet....

I am wondering why is that. According the many statements there could be hundreds of these out in the fields by now since they are said to be available for weeks now.....
So far her in Europe the message from several suppliers is still 'mid June' available at wholesale..... :-(

I find the whole 'availability' issue around these units a bit misty to say the least..... :?
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:11 pm

Our supplier has confirmed today they have the LHG60G in stock and can send our order, but these are pairs preconfigured and only for PtP ,could someone give an indication of when these will be available for PtMP ?
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:38 pm

I think you can connect LHG60 to same wAP60 with Licence 4 as AP :) You must only change SSID and security password
_________________
###############
PtP 60GHz Pro MHD: $660 exc VAT
http://24.multimediahd.pl/en/60ghz/8-wi ... link-.html
www.siec.multimediahd.pl/60ghz
###############
Madex Cables
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:06 pm

@jainge; Thanks for that info. Interesting tourist info too!

Anyway, it gives me the 'feeling' you actually had some early test versions / versions for test purposes only. How come? All the way in Hawaii? Did the Mikrotik guys happen to be there on holiday and had 2 of these units in their suitcase?
Together with the fact I haven't seen any posts from nobody yet, apart from some statements from Mikrotik crew, it seems these units are not out in the field yet....

I am wondering why is that. According the many statements there could be hundreds of these out in the fields by now since they are said to be available for weeks now.....
So far her in Europe the message from several suppliers is still 'mid June' available at wholesale..... :-(

I find the whole 'availability' issue around these units a bit misty to say the least..... :?
I am very sorry to all of you on this Forum. I initially posted my videos, photos and results to Facebook, on my Facebook page(s) https://www.facebook.com/jimaainge and that of the Millimeter Wave WISP Equipment Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/1759357 ... oup_header. And the WISP Talk Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/249134358750920/

I acquired this Pair of Pre-Configutred LHGG60 units while I was at the 2018 MUM in Berlin, Germany.

They were in professionally printed packaging as a Pre-Configured pair and all of the printed cartons, product labeling and Serial Number/MAC Address labels were as if they were ready for distribution. Perhaps these were the first off of the production line that were flown in from the factory to be at the MUM.

These LHGG60 units were originally announced at the same time the wAP60G units were over a year ago when I was at the 2017 MUM in Milan, Italy.

I too waited anxiously for this LHGG60 and the wAP60G units to be released.

Once the wAP60G units were available, I had several communications with the MikroTik staff while I worked on another project I have here in Hawaii where I used the wAP60G product in a Exposition Hall.

I have four(4) wAP60G units setup in AP-Bridge Mode (PtMP) providing a 185,000 square foot Exposition Hall with Gigabit Class service to individual booths. For those booths that order Internet service, I temporarily install a wAP60G in Station-Bridge Mode in their booth to provide internet connectivity for their booth. Since the wAP60G in AP-Bridge Mode can support up to 8 Station-Bridge units, I can provide service to booths throughout the exposition show floor using up to 32 wAP60G Station-Bridge units.

I kept in contact with MikroTik Support and my Distributor, Baltic Networks, through out the planning, installation and final implementation of this project in February of 2018.

As I was providing feedback to MikroTik I became familiar with the support people that responded to my inquiries.

So when I came to the 2018 MUM in Berlin, Germany I was familiar with a few of the staff members that helped me to implement the 60GHz wAP60G product and understand its capabilities.

I was pleasantly surprised to finally see the LHGG60 at the 2018 MUM in Berlin, Germany in what looked to be final packaging... the previous year we only saw prototype units.

I was surprisingly selected to be a tester while I was at the MikroTik MUM. While I was at the MikroTik table asking about Rain Fade over a 1500m distance, I was asked by the staff if I actually had a 1,500m link currently available that I would be able to use this on. I had my laptop with me and showed them a 1,470m link on my network maps where I was required to replace an existing 1470m 39GHz link very soon as Verizon Wireless had recently acquired the license for the 39GHz frequency I was using and I was required to terminate usage of the frequency very soon.

They then brought out a "Wireless Wire Dish" box and asked if I had space in my luggage to take this back to Hawaii with me... my partner (wife) said "Yes" faster than I could take a breath. They then filled out a log sheet with the details of the link and the unit I was being provided with. I was the first one on the log. sheet There were a few more open lines on the form. I suspect that there are other testers out there, probably in Europe as I was one of handful of attendees from the U.S.A..

I posted an "Unboxing video" to Facebook while I was still in my hotel in Berlin, thus confirming the actual existence of the product in it's soon to be released form https://www.facebook.com/jimaainge/vide ... 743932510/

Once we got back to Hawaii I proceeded to install the pair of units and since then I have been applying new RouterOS Release candidate versions as requested and testing the newly added features of the LHGG60, its operation and performance.

You can look back through my postings on Facebook to see a few other postings on the installation and initial testing of the LHGG60.

Once I again gain access to the Waikiki Shell mast I will perform a better alignment using the new RouterOS release candidate firmware and conduct more testing to be reported back to MikroTik and post to this Forum.

The latest RouterOS rc update not only supports the new LED aiming/alignment interface, it is supposedly able to further improve the stability of the link and increase the maximum distance to +2,000m.

I can probably coordinate a test of the LHGG60 link up to, or near to, the 2000m distance if I temporarily set it up in the park located beyond the Waikiki Shell location... We'll see how that works out.

In response to another posting, I do not see how a LHGG60 could be used as a PtMP AP as it has a very focused, approximately 3º maximum angle of coverage.

However, as I recall, I saw a question here and in the Facebook posting about using the LHGG60 as a Client in Station-Bridge Mode in a PtMP configuration... As far as I understand it, according to MikroTik support staff, the LHGG60 can be used as Client in Station-Bridge Mode with a wAP60G in AP-Bridge Mode (Level 4 License required) at full speed on distances of up to about 700m...? Perhaps someone from MikroTik can chime in on that to confirm and/or clarify this.

I cannot speak to the current availability of the LHGG60 as I too cannot order more units for myself at this time... and after testing this one, I Definitely want more of these units!

Perhaps I can order them to be drop shipped from the factory to Hawaii in order to save me on shipping costs. ;-)
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:47 pm

@jainge: Thanks for all that. So you where in fact 'the lucky guy'. Good! And more good news, extended range to 2000km! That gives me a couple of more links I can use them for (Although I think at this distance heavy rain will bring it down so a 5Ghz backup should still be running.)

If I take a look at the pictures I've seen so far this LHG-dish having a slightly more dense honey-grate structure then the 5 and 2,4Ghz sisters? I would expect so since the wavelength of 60Ghz is so small it might miss the raster of the 2,4 and 5Ghz ones.
In fact I'd wondered why MT didn't chose a thin metal foil. This would then also reduce the 'sticky snow' issue a bit for those that are affected by snow. (Not me!)

I think it would be no problem to use two of the LHG-60ad's of the wireless kit as CPE's in a P2MP setup. I'd presume all the hardware is the same and they run ROS! I have done the same with the small units.
Sometimes some providers sell the kit cheaper as two stand alone level 3 units so here you go....
According the law of physics, ie. antena gain and radio power, in analogy of all other radio wave transmissions, the signal strengt can be boosted by having either more powerful radio or a higher gain antena. Since the LHG-60ad most probably has the same hardware/radio as its smaller sisters all we have is a bigger gain antena and thus higher signal output as well as better receipt.
In using the LHG-60ad in a P2MP setup where a wAP 60G AP serves as AP we should have no issue to create cells of up to probably 500 to 750 meters (or more!)

The only caveat of 60Ghz on bigger distances, no matter how powerful the radio/how much gain the antenna, is that in end the energy is consumed by rain. And since the power budget on longer reaches drops pretty fast a bit of rain pushes the link over the edge.
But if you account for that (spare backhaul/failover) then I think the 60Ghz platform is a very nice product line.

(I worked now for over a year with Ignitenet's 60Ghz solution and although it gave us a way out of some spectral issues they also gave us grey hares and even after several replacements they are still not working 100%. If they don't drop their prices by at least 50% I think they loose a lot of market share to the new Mikrotik product..... At least I am not buying from them anymore.....)
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:05 pm

@jainge: Thanks for all that. So you where in fact 'the lucky guy'. Good! And more good news, extended range to 2000km! That gives me a couple of more links I can use them for (Although I think at this distance heavy rain will bring it down so a 5Ghz backup should still be running.)

If I take a look at the pictures I've seen so far this LHG-dish having a slightly more dense honey-grate structure then the 5 and 2,4Ghz sisters? I would expect so since the wavelength of 60Ghz is so small it might miss the raster of the 2,4 and 5Ghz ones.
In fact I'd wondered why MT didn't chose a thin metal foil. This would then also reduce the 'sticky snow' issue a bit for those that are affected by snow. (Not me!)

I think it would be no problem to use two of the LHG-60ad's of the wireless kit as CPE's in a P2MP setup. I'd presume all the hardware is the same and they run ROS! I have done the same with the small units.
Sometimes some providers sell the kit cheaper as two stand alone level 3 units so here you go....
According the law of physics, ie. antena gain and radio power, in analogy of all other radio wave transmissions, the signal strengt can be boosted by having either more powerful radio or a higher gain antena. Since the LHG-60ad most probably has the same hardware/radio as its smaller sisters all we have is a bigger gain antena and thus higher signal output as well as better receipt.
In using the LHG-60ad in a P2MP setup where a wAP 60G AP serves as AP we should have no issue to create cells of up to probably 500 to 750 meters (or more!)

The only caveat of 60Ghz on bigger distances, no matter how powerful the radio/how much gain the antenna, is that in end the energy is consumed by rain. And since the power budget on longer reaches drops pretty fast a bit of rain pushes the link over the edge.
But if you account for that (spare backhaul/failover) then I think the 60Ghz platform is a very nice product line.

(I worked now for over a year with Ignitenet's 60Ghz solution and although it gave us a way out of some spectral issues they also gave us grey hares and even after several replacements they are still not working 100%. If they don't drop their prices by at least 50% I think they loose a lot of market share to the new Mikrotik product..... At least I am not buying from them anymore.....)
There is definitive a need for 5GHz Backup. The weather is getting more problematic these days. We had 2 hard rains the last 10 days which even brought our 18GHz licensed links over it's limits (>30db attenuation) which have a big margin calculated. But backups have to take over very fast as the rain kicks in fast. For sure this rain would take out 60GHz, too.
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:08 am

@WirelessRudy
If I take a look at the pictures I've seen so far this LHG-dish having a slightly more dense honey-grate structure then the 5 and 2,4Ghz sisters? I would expect so since the wavelength of 60Ghz is so small it might miss the raster of the 2,4 and 5Ghz ones.
Unfortunately, I have never worked with any other MikroTik LHG Dish so I can't answer that.

However, I could take a photo with a scale up to it if that would help you?

Image
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:11 am

@jainge: Yes, much smaller. On the 2,4 and 5Ghz these are about 6 x 4 mm where your picture shows 1 x 1 mm roughly.
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:18 am

There is definitive a need for 5GHz Backup. The weather is getting more problematic these days. We had 2 hard rains the last 10 days which even brought our 18GHz licensed links over it's limits (>30db attenuation) which have a big margin calculated. But backups have to take over very fast as the rain kicks in fast. For sure this rain would take out 60GHz, too.
Every network has its own characteristics and demands.
I am using 60Ghz to get high capacity for my clients where due the spectral congestion this is almost impossible to do with normal 5Ghz stuff. Yes I can go for LTE or other solutions but who says it will help me and my pockets are not deep enough anyway to go for most alternative.
I am also lucky that if we would count heavy rain hours a year, I'd probably reach 2 hours!
Moderate to heavy rain, maybe 4 hours. Per year! So that is not really an issue. In fact it's such a rare event usually power goes down, or people are looking through the window of the house instead of the 'windows' on their PC.....
Off course my backbone network has to stay up. It has one 60Ghz link in it transporting some 40% of my clients traffic. But if it goes down we have a 'loop' that can supply (limited) capacity to the other side of the link.

To us a backup solution that needs 5Ghz to run all the time is not a solution. It would need spectrum that we now have freed so our other 5Ghz stuff has better cleaner spectrum.
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:45 am

Please keep in mind that stated 1.5km range is with including weather factors.
A silly or not so silly idea. What about coating the reflector with a hydrophobic material such as Teflon (PTFE)?
It should help to prevent snow or even ice from sticking to the antenna.
 
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Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:36 am

@JAINGE - How many hours of flight time did you spend getting to Berlin?

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