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lbgaus
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DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Thu Nov 29, 2018 12:14 am

I've seen some instances of Wireless LANs popping up that use dynamic/unique PSKs that are preregistered with the WLAN operator... Each device connects with a unique PSK instead of the traditional shared PSK. This is to support increased WiFi privacy on a WPA2-Personal protected network without having to use WPA2-Enterprise/802.1x (useful for shared networks where it is impractical to install a certificate on the client).

Is it possible to add such support to Mikrotik wireless APs?
 
blingblouw
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:42 am

Oh yeah! This would be awesome. We used this on a couple of ruckus sites and it's pretty cool
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support  [SOLVED]

Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:09 am

Its been in there for years.
Go into your access control list under wireless. You can generate/set per Mac address passwords.

I took my dpsk file from my Zone Director and copy and pasted the passwords in to my access list. Result... The dpsk keys work on my Mikrotik wireless. Unplugged the ZD months ago. The performance of the Mikrotik wireless is no where near as good as the Ruckus APs. But if you don't mind the more than 50% drop off in throughput (866 down to 300)... The Mikrotik WAPs only cost $70 in the US

example from a stand alone Access Point.
/interface wireless access-list
add comment=Jayden mac-address=5C:1D:D9:C3:C6:15 private-pre-shared-key=supersecretpasswordexample vlan-mode=no-tag
example from caps-man
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept allow-signal-out-of-range=10s comment=Jayden disabled=no mac-address=5C:1D:D9:C3:C6:15 private-passphrase=\
    supersecretpasswordexample
So its kind of nice because you can actually make up passwords and they can be any length you want.
Also you can make that one password work for one SSID, All SSIDs, A group of access points, etc.
Further... you can go back and add a VLAN tag to bounce a device into another subnet AFTER ITS BEEN ON THE SYSTEM. (in Ruckus its set once you generate the file)
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:57 am

Furthermore, you can associate a RADIUS to manage the mac-address/password association.
There are few presentations that covered this topic.
MikroTik was there for ages, too bad they didn't use it as a good advertisement.
 
lbgaus
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Thu Nov 29, 2018 6:37 pm

Wow, this is really awesome news. I had no idea it was in there, although that's probably because I typically don't need to implement ACLs.

Great stuff... Thanks!
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:16 pm

Furthermore, you can associate a RADIUS to manage the mac-address/password association.
There are few presentations that covered this topic.
MikroTik was there for ages, too bad they didn't use it as a good advertisement.
Do you have a link to the presentations? I assume you mean youtube, but I cannot seem to find them in English.
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:19 pm

Its been in there for years.
Go into your access control list under wireless. You can generate/set per Mac address passwords.
/interface wireless access-list
add comment=Jayden mac-address=5C:1D:D9:C3:C6:15 private-pre-shared-key=supersecretpasswordexample vlan-mode=no-tag

Is this the same as EAP-PWD (RFC5931) or is it as secure as EAP-PWD?
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:44 pm

This would be way more useful if the Access List didn't stop on the first failure but went on to try and validate against the next matching rule. You could then have multiple PSK's without defined MAC addresses allowing you to set different keys for different users without the need to pre-register MAC addresses.

This is how the Group DPSK function works on Ruckus and is very handy for users with multiple devices.
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:16 pm

The more I use Mikrotik wireless... The more I love Ruckus.

If you need a solution... RUCKUS.
If you don't mind a hobby... Mikrotik.

This is completely the opposite of Mikrotik routing.
 
olivier2831
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Nov 12, 2021 5:43 pm

The more I use Mikrotik wireless... The more I love Ruckus.
Which Ruckus AP do you prefer within 100-150 Euros price range ?
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Sat Jan 01, 2022 11:36 pm

This would be way more useful if the Access List didn't stop on the first failure but went on to try and validate against the next matching rule. You could then have multiple PSK's without defined MAC addresses allowing you to set different keys for different users without the need to pre-register MAC addresses.

This is how the Group DPSK function works on Ruckus and is very handy for users with multiple devices.
do you have a working example?
I try to set up dynamic VLAN assignments based on used Private-PSK.
There is this RADIUS attributes
Mikrotik-Wireless-PSK
which could be used but I cannot find any tutorial or topic using it, so I'm wondering if this is feasible?
Any input is welcome :D
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:13 pm

Its been in there for years.
....
Further... you can go back and add a VLAN tag to bounce a device into another subnet AFTER ITS BEEN ON THE SYSTEM. (in Ruckus its set once you generate the file)
how you do you do that?
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 2:05 pm

Its been in there for years.
....
Further... you can go back and add a VLAN tag to bounce a device into another subnet AFTER ITS BEEN ON THE SYSTEM. (in Ruckus its set once you generate the file)
how you do you do that?
Go into to ACL.
Add the Mac address and password you want the client to bind together.
Select a VLAN tag.
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:27 pm

Go into to ACL.
Add the Mac address and password you want the client to bind together.
Select a VLAN tag.
could you share the config to do so?
I'm still on vacation and far from home to check it out at my system :)

would it be like
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User1_Device1 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User1_Device2 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User2_Device1 private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2


Could the PPSK based access-list be used to realize a feature like Working with Dynamic Pre-Shared Keys (commscope.com) by either using 00:00:00:00:00:00 as MAC or omitting the MAC altogether?
So the code for a PPSK based VLAN assignment could be like:
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2

code was written on what was mentioned in this topic and in wireless access list vlan mode & id function? - MikroTik and Can each wireless user connect to their own VLAN? - MikroTik
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:26 pm

Go into to ACL.
Add the Mac address and password you want the client to bind together.
Select a VLAN tag.
could you share the config to do so?
I'm still on vacation and far from home to check it out at my system :)

would it be like
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User1_Device1 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User1_Device2 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=MAC_User2_Device1 private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2


Could the PPSK based access-list be used to realize a feature like Working with Dynamic Pre-Shared Keys (commscope.com) by either using 00:00:00:00:00:00 as MAC or omitting the MAC altogether?
So the code for a PPSK based VLAN assignment could be like:
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2

code was written on what was mentioned in this topic and in wireless access list vlan mode & id function? - MikroTik and Can each wireless user connect to their own VLAN? - MikroTik
Move my laptop into a different VLAN based on the password I used.
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept allow-signal-out-of-range=10s comment="Windows LapTop" \
    disabled=no mac-address=C8:FF:28:3C:35:35 private-passphrase=pn4XaFnnKX \
    ssid-regexp=WhateverSSID vlan-id=254 vlan-mode=use-tag

As for replacing Ruckus...
A few weeks using Mikrotik wireless and you will realize that was a seriously bad idea.

Especially if you have (URC, HP, ETC) a few 2.4 only wifi clients on your networks.
 
PackElend
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:33 pm

Move my laptop into a different VLAN based on the password I used.
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept allow-signal-out-of-range=10s comment="Windows LapTop" \
    disabled=no mac-address=C8:FF:28:3C:35:35 private-passphrase=pn4XaFnnKX \
    ssid-regexp=WhateverSSID vlan-id=254 vlan-mode=use-tag

this assumes that the MAC is known, but what if the MAC is not known in advance?
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:54 pm

Move my laptop into a different VLAN based on the password I used.
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept allow-signal-out-of-range=10s comment="Windows LapTop" \
    disabled=no mac-address=C8:FF:28:3C:35:35 private-passphrase=pn4XaFnnKX \
    ssid-regexp=WhateverSSID vlan-id=254 vlan-mode=use-tag

this assumes that the MAC is known, but what if the MAC is not known in advance?
Just tried it. Device was allowed to connect.
 
PackElend
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:13 pm

Just tried it. Device was allowed to connect.
Using what configuration, the one posted before?


Does the following work as well?
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:23 pm

Just tried it. Device was allowed to connect.
Using what configuration, the one posted before?


Does the following work as well?
/caps-man access-list
add action=accept private-passphrase= PPSK_User1 vlan-id=VLAN_User1 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User1
add action=accept private-passphrase= PPSK_User2 vlan-id=VLAN_User2 vlan-mode=use-tag comment=User2
I was on a standalone hAP AC2 that is not running caps-man

[admin@MikroTik] /interface/wireless/access-list> print
Flags: X - disabled
0 mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 interface=any signal-range=-120..120
allow-signal-out-of-range=10s authentication=yes forwarding=yes
ap-tx-limit=0 client-tx-limit=0 private-algo=none private-key=""
private-pre-shared-key="thisisatest" management-protection-key=""
vlan-mode=default vlan-id=1
 
PackElend
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 8:03 pm

No problem, thanks a lot for testing and sharing 😀.

I'm currently only on mobile so I cannot contribute anything.

Would it still work if it is done with 2 rules like that but with different private-pre-shared-key?

Like
private-pre-shared-key="user1" vlan-id=1
private-pre-shared-key="user2" vlan-id=2
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:18 pm

No problem, thanks a lot for testing and sharing 😀.

I'm currently only on mobile so I cannot contribute anything.

Would it still work if it is done with 2 rules like that but with different private-pre-shared-key?

Like
private-pre-shared-key="user1" vlan-id=1
private-pre-shared-key="user2" vlan-id=2
The last time I tested this it didn’t work. I think that was v6.48. The logic seems to be - check the PSK for first rule that matches the MAC address pattern (in this case any Mac), if that fails then fail auth. At the time of my testing it would not then go on to check another rule that also matches the Mac pattern. But I wish it would!
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Mon Jan 03, 2022 10:33 pm

The last time I tested this it didn’t work. I think that was v6.48. T
do you run now v6.49.x to test it again?
May it works in v7.x?
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:00 am

The last time I tested this it didn’t work. I think that was v6.48. T
do you run now v6.49.x to test it again?
May it works in v7.x?
When I get a chance I will try it again. I’ve kept a close eye on release notes and I’ve never seen any work on this topic though; sadly I get the impression that MikroTik doesn’t see this as an issue and I don’t think I’ve been able to encourage anyone to see the value in DPSK style functionality. It’s frustrating, we use Ruckus DPSK on loads of client sites and MDUs, I’d love it if we could offer it on Mikrotik as an alternative to Ruckus.

That said it’s not well supported by Ruckus either, you can only do Dynamic VLANs with DPSKs on Virtual SmartZone. These two functions in combination aren’t supported yet on either their cloud platform or in Unleashed, though both are supported separately, so it’s probably just a matter of time.
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Tue Jan 04, 2022 12:54 pm

Excession

Like I stated... I learned the hard way that Mikrotik wireless is not in the same league as Ruckus.

It was a painful (expensive) lesson. Hundreds of hours of custom coding I will never use again. And thousands of dollars out of my pockets as I paid to replace the Tik radios.

While I was seduced by the power and flexibility of routerOS and caps-man, the actual radio performance ain't there.

For ruckus I went from Zone Directors to Unleashed. Never got into virtual smart zone or cloud. So I my knowledge of those other platforms is limited/non existent.
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Tue Jan 04, 2022 1:19 pm

I broadly agree with you Gotsprings, we too deploy a lot of Ruckus. But I also think there is a place in the Market for MikroTik and have found many places to successfully use their Radios as well.

This isn’t a discussion over who’s better; just an examination of DPSK functionality and if it’s possible to replicate it on MikroTik.
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:12 am

I broadly agree with you Gotsprings, we too deploy a lot of Ruckus. But I also think there is a place in the Market for MikroTik and have found many places to successfully use their Radios as well.

This isn’t a discussion over who’s better; just an examination of DPSK functionality and if it’s possible to replicate it on MikroTik.
Its the inability for Mikrotik radios to deal with some 2.4 clients at all and especially under any sort of crowded environment, that made the systems crumble.

I have a cambium on my bench right now.
Todays experiment... added a epsk password to my network. Tagged that password with a VLAN tag.

People who use the system password get VLAN 1. People who use the ePSK password get VLAN 254.

You know... what I was being asked to do yesterday.
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:07 am

I get that your experience has told you not to use MikroTik radios, but come on my Man, you’re on a MikroTik forum here; are you jumping on every forum post about setting up a hotspot or configuring caps-man and derailing the conversation buy telling everyone who’s come here for exactly this vendor specific discussion, that they’re using the wrong product? After a point it’s not all that helpful.

You did just prompt me to Google epsk on Cambium though, which was an interesting read, so you’re not all bad! :wink:
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:23 pm

Remember... It was Mikrotik who said that their radio wasn't suitable to busy noisy environments. And just said... "Ohh well" when clients remote controls would show as connected... But not actually work until you cycled the radio.

Ergo why I had to stop using the caps and WAPs.

But now I have decent connectivity with WiFi WAVE2 drivers. Actually matching the other vendors old stuff that was WiFi AC2. But sadly... No wave 2 support on most Mikrotik's and NONE in caps-mode.

So if I was willing to set up a house full of Audience's as standalone devices... I could get clients to stay connected.
 
digit
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:57 pm

No problem, thanks a lot for testing and sharing 😀.

I'm currently only on mobile so I cannot contribute anything.

Would it still work if it is done with 2 rules like that but with different private-pre-shared-key?

Like
private-pre-shared-key="user1" vlan-id=1
private-pre-shared-key="user2" vlan-id=2
The last time I tested this it didn’t work. I think that was v6.48. The logic seems to be - check the PSK for first rule that matches the MAC address pattern (in this case any Mac), if that fails then fail auth. At the time of my testing it would not then go on to check another rule that also matches the Mac pattern. But I wish it would!
I confirm same behaviour with 6.49.3 where it check the first 00:00:00:00:00:00 and if failed, does not check other. So close to a working solution...

Feature requested here: viewtopic.php?p=913918#p913918
Last edited by digit on Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:13 pm

That's a shame, but thanks for sharing your results.
I don't think Mikrotik quite get the use case we're going for here or why we'd like this slight change in the validation behaviour to start with.
Probably isn't going to change without some campaigning.
 
digit
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Feb 18, 2022 4:23 pm

I have documented the behaviour and post a feature request there. chime in !

viewtopic.php?p=913918#p913918
 
digit
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:12 pm

Got an answer on my feature request post.

Ruckus have a patent on DPSK... But I don't think it apply
 
excession
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri Feb 18, 2022 7:42 pm

Cambian have EPSK, which is basically the same thing.
Seems like marketing, rather than technical patent.

Good effort btw.
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Sat Feb 19, 2022 1:42 am

Cambian have EPSK, which is basically the same thing.
Seems like marketing, rather than technical patent.

Good effort btw.
After using DPSK for years... I can say that EPSK is not the same.

Apple is making DPSK a pain now. The phone warns of security issues if you DON'T USE A RANDOM MAC ADDRESS. So the customer tried to help and flips their MAC to random or private and their DPSK key doesn't work.

EPSK doesn't need you to bind a MAC address.

Not only does this "out due" ruckus's up to 4 devices.

It makes it so that phone didn't chew up two slots when they flipped between private and device MAC.

I was mildly excited when I saw an option to deny Private MAC addresses in Engenius new cloud architecture. But the product sucked so bad it didn't merit any more of my time.
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:26 pm

We use Ruckus DPSK in the “group DPSK” mode. Like this it doesn’t care about MAC addresses, just that your device knows the PSK for that group. We tend to use it in MDU environments, one DPSK per apartment, landing the user on the associated VLAN for that DPSK.
 
gotsprings
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Sat Feb 19, 2022 6:08 pm

We use Ruckus DPSK in the “group DPSK” mode. Like this it doesn’t care about MAC addresses, just that your device knows the PSK for that group. We tend to use it in MDU environments, one DPSK per apartment, landing the user on the associated VLAN for that DPSK.
Ahh...

I came from Standard DPSK... which is now checked off as LIMITED DPSK.
I see the difference now.

But i am trying to escape Ruckus now. 14 months of connectivity issues and the pricing on that H550 is nuts.
 
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Re: DPSK Dynamic WPA2 PSK support

Fri May 19, 2023 9:39 am

The more I use Mikrotik wireless... The more I love Ruckus.

If you need a solution... RUCKUS.
If you don't mind a hobby... Mikrotik.

This is completely the opposite of Mikrotik routing.
AGREED!
when i first started w ros / mt back in the ros 2.9.x days, i wrongly assumed: WOW, mikrotik is so amazing and powerful with routing, thus their wifi products must be similar!
... WRONG! :( .. fast fw 15 years later , and 10,000+ APs (of all kinds/makes) later and... you cant go wrong with Ruckus. Excellent wifi performance, great hardware.

this is not a nock against MT, i LOVE mikrotik. they just dont focus on wifi, like they do on routing - and this was a mis-conception i had, and learned the hard way.

I havent used a mikrotik branded AP to serve end-users in many years now. (they are great when you need some special/unusual wifi one-off setup though - and are GREAT as wifi testing /troubleshooting devices! (but NOT for serving wifi to end-users).
If you want some insight into a devices wifi performance, PRE purchase or PRE-deply- look up the FCC docs to see how the build quality of the APs internals look. (ie the PCB / Shielding, pig-tails to antennas, or lack of). its not just for show / looks. i have found THIS to be a decent indicator.

(more ON topic - the OP of this post, is really referring to dynamic-PSK where you DONT have to pre-provide the devices mac-address. that is what makes true dPSK special. although In my experience, dPSK of any variety is rarely used to serve end-users, in the context this author is referring to.)

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