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markep
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[hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:29 pm

I have a hAP-ac3 running 6.48.3 sitting about three feet away from my laptop. With a wired connection to the MikroTik, speedtest.net tests yield around 630 Mbps up/down. When connected to an SSID associated with the 2.4 GHz radio, I'm getting around 120 Mbps up/down. Connected to a 5 GHz SSID, I'm getting only about 80 Mbps up/down, which seems strangely slow. I ran the same tests from a second laptop and received similar results: significantly faster wifi on 2.4GHz.

Based on forum searches, I've made a few changes to the 5 GHz interface configuration:
-band from '5GHz-A/N/AC' to '5GHz-N/AC'
-installation from 'indoor' to 'any'
-adaptive noise immunity from 'none' to 'ap and client mode'

None of the above changes improved the speed. I know there are many factors involved, but what sort of 5GHz speed should I expect given a 630 Mbps wired speed? Any tips or advice on where to start troubleshooting? Thank you.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:48 pm

If you're not using it on a production environment you can try 7.1 beta 6 and install the new wifiwave2 package, it provides new optimized drivers for your device.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:01 pm

I can be that you have not configured your 5GHz in an optimal way.
Example channel width to 20Mhz instead of 80MHz.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:20 am

1. Upgrade
2. System reset
3. Configure the device using Quicket, set mode to HomeAP Dual - for test!

See what speed you get then. Normally this hAP ac3 can get much much more in both bands
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 8:33 am

1. Upgrade
Upgrade to what? He do has 6.48.3, should he use a test or beta version?
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:35 am

That's generic advice for all :) For this case, he can skip it (or upgrade to 6.49beta54)
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:55 am

@markep we must also think about the laptop...
For example: how many antennas for 5GHz has your laptop?
If the reply is "only one"... do not expect good results, etc.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:43 pm

When connected to an SSID associated with the 2.4 GHz radio, I'm getting around 120 Mbps up/down
Wow, this is a strong performance. For this as data rate you need something like 300Mbps interface rate, what can only be done with the 40MHz bandwidth. (What is only possible in an low contention environment)
Or ... in other words ... what are you looking at as rate indicator? If it is looking at the interface rate, then the 80Mbps interface rate for 5 GHz is indeed very low. You should get something like 400Mbps for 40 MHz (2 stream) , or even 866Mbps for 80 MHz bandwidth.

5 GHz doesn't like to pass through walls, furniture or people. So what is the Signal strength, SNR and CCQ you get (as seen in the wireless registration table).
And what is the exact interface rate indicated? Something like "81Mbps-40MHz/1S"? This is (V)HT MCS 04, a reduced encoding, used because of signal distortion, reflection or interference.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:21 pm

Hello all,

Many thanks for your replies--I will start working through these suggestions today and let you know how it goes.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:49 pm

Im with bpwl, 120 for 2.4ghz........... how?
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:04 pm

Probably aren't test but datarates... Like connect to a pc the ethernet cable and get 1G or 100M
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:10 pm

So, good news and bad news. The good news is that I'm seeing vastly improved speeds on the 5GHz networks. The bad news is that I didn't change anything yet, so I'm not sure what the resolution was, or if it's resolved long term.

From my laptop, a speedtest.net test just yielded 380 Mbps down, 330 Mbps up on the 5GHz wifi network. From what I'm seeing here, that should be about right.

One thing I neglected to do was reboot the MikroTik after making the changes referenced in my original post, but I haven't reset it since then either. After each interface change, the 5GHz wireless networks vanished for about ten minutes per the normal "listening" stage, so I assumed the changes were taking effect. Could there have been some routine nightly job that made the difference?

@santyx32 - I will keep an eye out for v7.1: this box is in production, but I'm glad to hear about the coming new drivers for the hAP AC3.

@Jotne - channel width is set to 20/40/80MHz XXXX (I believe I've left this at the default)

@normis - I'm set to WISP AP, but if I find degraded speeds again I will give this test a try in the wee hours.

@rextended - Your comment led me to check on the devices I'm using. My primary laptop is good, but a Surface Go was connected to the 5GHz network using 802.11n, though the adapter is capable of 802.11ac--still looking into that. (I'm only getting speedtest.net results of 97Mbps down, 108Mbps up on it. The 2.4GHz numbers are a little better.) My phone (Pixel 4a) is pulling down 275 Mbps on speedtest.net, so I'm seeing great improvement there too.

@bpwl - For rate I was just using the speedtest.net website. Should I be using some other method? The numbers look much better now on the registration table (the rx rate does seem to bounce around somewhat compared to signal and tx rate, which are fairly stable)
tx/rx strength: -51 | tx rate: 866.6Mbps-80Mhz/2S/SGI | rx rate: 650Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI
And yes, the 2.4GHz connections are excellent! A (very) nearby laptop shows -37 signal strength, tx of 150Mbps-40MHz/1S/SGI, and rx of 300Mbps-40MHz/2S/SGI. A Raspberry Pi 4 sitting next to the MikroTik has both tx/rx at 300Mbps-40MHz/2S/SGI.

I'm going to keep an eye on it and see if these improved results remain. I'm still curious about what may have happened. Thank you MikroTik community!
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:23 pm

After each interface change, the 5GHz wireless networks vanished for about ten minutes per the normal "listening" stage
Is the DFS, if you set one frequency different to 5180 or set to auto, on DFS frequency check if some radar are presents before staret transmit.
this require sometime more than 10 minutes
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:09 am

Excellent. Check the registration rate as rate indication (that gives the wifi speed, (and 380Mbps out of a 866Mbps is normal max value, for MT with the current drivers)).
Speedtest over the internet has many other factors included in the test.

But my advice: if you leave the freq on auto, and/or use XXXX as channel selection, your results may vary after every change or restart. In fact you leave the channel selection to the MT, which has very few instant information, to make a proper selection. Whenever DFS channels come into play , there is a 1 minute "listen for radar" time, if a weather-radar freq (5600,5620,5640) is part of the selected range, then the listen time is 10 minutes, and comes with EVERY change. (cfr @rextended). (There is an option to skip the 10-min channels, even to skip DFS, but then there is little left to use.)
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:01 am

@bpwl When I look at the current 5GHz interface, it is showing "5700/20-eeCe/ac/DP(21dBm)". Is your recommendation that I manually set the channel width to "20/40/80 MHz eeCe" and the frequency to "5700" in order to lock in the settings that are currently working well? Would there be any downsides? Thanks!
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:14 am

That would be a good idea, to stabilize the outcome. Actually one should first do several "Freq usage" and "Snooper" scans to find out what else is potentially interfering, and then make a proper selection.

A radar detection may still overrule your own setting. To be somewhat more in control, you have to fill in the "Channels" table.
Something like this .... (my values irrelevant for your case). HOW RouterOS is using those tables, I couldn't find out yet. (Regular start over from the beginning of the list, by radar detect (= false positive mostly))
Klembord-2.jpg
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 2:33 pm

Excellent. Check the registration rate as rate indication (that gives the wifi speed, (and 380Mbps out of a 866Mbps is normal max value, for MT with the current drivers)).
Speedtest over the internet has many other factors included in the test.

But my advice: if you leave the freq on auto, and/or use XXXX as channel selection, your results may vary after every change or restart. In fact you leave the channel selection to the MT, which has very few instant information, to make a proper selection. Whenever DFS channels come into play , there is a 1 minute "listen for radar" time, if a weather-radar freq (5600,5620,5640) is part of the selected range, then the listen time is 10 minutes, and comes with EVERY change. (cfr @rextended). (There is an option to skip the 10-min channels, even to skip DFS, but then there is little left to use.)
bpwl, Using the 1/3 rule in good conditions he should be getting speeds of around 300, so he is doing very well for a close LOS connection. He may even get decent performance through one wall.

Interesting settings: "20/40/80 MHz eeCe AC, whereas I use 20/40 ce n/ac ( without worrying about end users, what is the difference)
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 5:17 pm

I ran a few frequency scans and let the snooper listen for a few minutes. After the tests, the 5GHz interface auto-selected settings of 5620/20-eeeC/ac/DP(21dBm). This channel and frequency looks clear to me (see screenshots), which I imagine is why the MT likes these settings, but I once again had poor 5GHz speeds, so I went ahead and rebooted. After reboot the MT again selected 5620/20-eeeC/ac/DP. The registration table for my laptop on 5GHz showed:
Signal strength: -55 | Tx rate: 173.3Mbps-20MHz/2S/SGI | Rx rate: 86.6Mbps-20MHz/1S/SGI
Another laptop showed similar weak numbers:
Signal strength: -34 | Tx rate: 72.2Mbps-20MHz/1S/SGI | Rx rate: 144.4Mbps-20MHz/2S/SGI
As you'd guess from the above, speedtest.net numbers were back in the 60 down/70 up range again (slower than my 2.4GHz numbers).

As discussed in an earlier post, I now went ahead and manually set the 5GHz interface to 20/40/80MHz eeCe/frequency 5700 and waited for radar detection to finish, then connected back to a 5GHz SSID. Registration numbers were strong again. Fluctuating a bit, but still ranging up to Tx: 866.6Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI and Rx: 585Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI. Speedtest numbers were back around 260Mbps down and 245Mbps up.
Why then would the 5620 setting yield such poor results? In building the channel table per @bpwl I likely would have chosen that one myself. Here's a sample of two frequency scans (first on the left, second on the right):
mikrotik-freq-scan-sshot-00.png
And here's a sample of the snooper output, sorted by channel:
mikrotik-snooper-sshot-00.png
I don't see any reason to pick 5700 over 5620, but clearly the end results are wildly different. Unless I'm misinterpreting the freq/snooper data, I get the impression I will have to pursue this empirically, trying all the apparently clear frequencies for performance, then building the channel table accordingly.
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:51 pm

Be sure to disable radar detect. Then again try auto-frequency. But honest, it is always best to statically assign your channels/frequencies....

Results on your channel 5700 - look great
Tx: 866.6Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI and Rx: 585Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI

Set your frequency to 5220 and try again, Compaire 5220 and 5700.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:36 am

Hello @toxicfusion. I tried the 5220 frequency and it is a strong performer as well. Watching the registration table for a short while yielded these--Signal strength: -57 | Tx rate: 780Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI | Rx rate: 520Mbps-80MHz/2S/SGI, with speedtest.net results of 260Mbps down, 210Mbps up. Very comparable to the 5700 frequency. I haven't tried the auto settings with radar detect disabled yet, but will give that a try.

@bpwl Could you point me in the right direction to create the Channels table? I tried to "add new," but the "List" field is required and empty, and I haven't yet found where to create the Lists that would populate the field. In the screenshot from your earlier post, how did you create the "dfs" list?

Thanks all.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:55 am

Be ware that the max power level varies with the channels. Check with "interface wireless info country-info <your set country or region>" in CLI.
.
I don't see any reason to pick 5700 over 5620, but clearly the end results are wildly different.
.
.
Well not simple to find a reason for that. The "intelligence" of the MT did indeed make a logical selection.

A few very very wild guesses:
- there are other devices emitting 5 GHz signals with other protocols than 802.11. Those are not picked up by Snooper, and possibly not by freq-usage either. (MT will see "nv2", other devices do not)
-there seems to be a preference on defining 40MHz and 80 MHz wide channels. At least that's what I see in almost all sites that list 20/40/80 wide channels.
80 MHz wide channels in 5 GHz are found as channel#: (36 - 48) (52 - 64) (100 - 112) (116 - 128) (132 - 144) (149 - 161)
The 5700 eeCe (132-144) fits in this, the 5620 eeeC (112-124) does not.
Is this important or not? I have no clue! But if someone is using 5640 eeeC , then the 2 - 2.7% freq usage is not such a good sign for free channels. (ac uses channels as needed starting with the C)

The experiment is the best indication, so indeed fix the outcome !
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:02 am

Could you point me in the right direction to create the Channels table? I tried to "add new," but the "List" field is required and empty, and I haven't yet found where to create the Lists that would populate the field. In the screenshot from your earlier post, how did you create the "dfs" list?
Just one by one , with the blue + :-) Fill in any name as list, use that list-name in the wireless setup. I just used DFS because I struggled with DFS at that moment. It does not enable/disable DFS !
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:35 am

Interesting settings: "20/40/80 MHz eeCe AC, whereas I use 20/40 ce n/ac ( without worrying about end users, what is the difference)
I don't know how the selection is made for a device that can do both "n" and "ac". I hope "ac" is used.
If "n" is used, then a 2 stream is limited to 300Mbps interface rate. Both channels must be free to transmit for "n".
If "ac" is used, then that limit is at 400 Mbps interface rate. The free channels are used to transmit.
For 80MHz wide in ac the limit is 866 Mbps interface rate, but chances for interference are double, and the energy density (over freq) is halve. It needs cleaner conditions, and the path of stepping down is just another thing to look at (Is it MCS rates first, or channel width, or # streams ???). The clear-channel contention overhead becomes very important at those high interface rates, giving lower data throughput %. (MT uses small A-MPDU buffer sizes).
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:17 pm

Speed test using OOKLA to my ISP provider and back through their network (out bell canada, back via bell aliant - 1gig connection)

Iphone 12 mini.
Capac LOS within 10 feet
using 5 N/AC 20/40 Ce
Down 195, Up 150
freq 5540

Using 5 AC 20/40 Ce
Down 256, Up 187
freq 5540

Using 5 AC 20/40/80 Ceee
Down 344, Up 275
freq 5500

Quite impressed that on my small phone i could get 344 / 275 on the capac!!

TP LINK eap 245 from same location, and thus through at least two walls.
20/40/80 AC only channel 5745 (however I have no idea if tp link uses Cee or eeC or eCe??)
Down 177, Up 130

TP link eap 660H from same location, and thus through concrete floor and at least one wall
20/40/80 a/n/ac/ax freq 5180 power 16db
Down 259, Up 240

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Tests with same settings but within 10 Feet and LOS of TPlink EAP 660HD
EAP-660HD -
Down 658, Up 334

EAP 245 - through at least 4 walls and concrete floor - Couldnt get the SSID to show. (too weak?)
Down , Up

CAPAC - through at least two walls and concrete floor _ Hard to get SSID to show (very weak ( at best setting AC 20/40/80)
Down 23.8, Up 10.2

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tests with same settings but within 10 Feet and LOS of TPlink EAP 245
EAP-245 -
Down 621 , Up 350
Wow this is as good as the EAP 660HD at close range - very impressive.

EAP 660HD - through at least 3 walls and concrete floor -
Down 16, Up 12
Impressive to have some sort of connection, in contrast the EAP 245 was not visible at all when the roles reversed.

CAPAC - through at least two walls (at best setting AC - 20/40/80)
Down 114 Up 32

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CONCLUSIONS

Best Value: The EAP 245 was the clear winner for a LOS or within one wall AP for the value, matching the speed of the 660HD for LOS and is useful up to 2 walls.
LOS speed: 621 down, 350up.

Best Overall and Through Walls: The EAP 660HD was the clear winner for range through obstacles, walls, concrete floors and is useful through 3 or more walls.

Last Place: The CAPAC was a reasonable choice for LOS and maybe one wall but not best value. The EAP 325 performed significantly better through at least one wall.
Last edited by anav on Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:59 pm

@anav -

Great comparison on the Cap AC vs the TP-LINK EAP245 [these are nice, i used them time to time].

Is the cAP AC and the TP-Links in same location and the speed tests done from same device and same location???

The caP AC's are quite good.... I like them for indoor deployments.

Shows that for best 5Ghz performance with MikroTik you HAVE to use "only-ac" option. Where as when use "n/ac", the end-user device will probably just use wireless-n over AC..... SOOOOOO many factors come into play on that client-side decision and or AP decision. Comes down to clean channels, distance [RSSI], CCQ, etc.

I know bpwl has all the information on this.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Thu Aug 12, 2021 1:15 am

No as stated I did all my tests from the same location, the CAPAC was 12 feet away LOS.
The Eap 245 was at least two walls probably 3 away
The EAP 660 Was thru a cement floor at least one wall and two floors.
I will attempt similar tests (LOS and close to the TP links later)
The firmware on the tplink 660hd is fairly new and should be updated in time,
Right now I cannot do an AC mode only or ac/ax mode for example .....
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:09 pm

Hello all. I still have some tests to run to build out the complete channel table, but in the meantime all is stable and fast. I'm collecting what I've learned here:
Symptoms - Subpar throughput on multiple devices from connections on the 5GHz wireless interface, as tested with speedtest.net and the MikroTik wireless registration table. Using the same devices in the same locations, wireless speeds were better on 2.4GHz networks even at close, line-of-sight range to the MT.
Cause - The 5GHz wireless interface was largely set to auto-configuration, with a Band of "5GHz A/N/AC," Channel Width of "20/40/80MHz XXXX," and Frequency of "auto." The MikroTik made what appeared to be sensible selections in theory, choosing quiet frequencies, but in practice the auto-selected frequency performed poorly.
Why the auto-selected configuration performed poorly is still unknown and thus attributed to the enduring mystery and challenge of radio frequency engineering.
Resolution - Relying on wireless auto-configuration can result in unpredictable results, as the configuration may change sporadically due to external influences, leading to good performance one moment and poor performance the next. Instead, use frequency scans and wireless snooping to first check for RF congestion, then test the performance of apparently clear frequencies, and finally populate the wireless channel table according to the results, favoring the strong configurations and disabling the poor ones.
Ultimately, a wireless configuration that is narrowly tuned to your unique RF environment will perform more reliably than automatic configurations.
Collected tips/advice:
  • Ensure the MT is running up-to-date software and firmware. (@normis)
  • Consider beta RouterOS versions for non-production devices. (@santyx32)
  • Check the client wireless capabilities and firmware. Some laptops, phones, wireless interface controllers may not be capable of optimal speeds, regardless of the MT configuration. (@rextended)
  • Narrow the available bands as possible: "5GHz AC only" is preferred to "5GHz N/AC" which is preferred to "5GHz A/N/AC". (@toxicfusion)
  • Manually determine the best settings for Channel Width and Frequency according to scans and tests (frequency scans and wireless snooping on the 5GHz interface). The wireless registration table is authoritative for checking client rates. (@bpwl, @Jotne, @toxicfusion)
  • Build the Wireless Channel Table off the results, then apply the created table in the wireless interface configuration. Note that channels have different maximum power levels, as shown via the CLI command "interface wireless info country-info <your country/region>" (@bpwl)
Thanks again. You have all been a tremendous help.
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:02 pm

Nice wrap up. Good conclusion on "auto" and non-specified extension channels. The same is true for 2.4GHz, but might not have shown up here. For the same auto-reason as above, the 2.4 GHz auto, for all brands I tested, select the lowest energy channel. So in our nicely set up and tuned 1-6-11 channel spread, those 'unmanaged' devices chose channel 3,4 or 8,9 ... the lowest energy, but maximal destructive adjacent channel interference. Some have an option to select the allowed channels (equivalent of channel list), but you have to set it up or select the 1-6-11 or 1-5-9-13, and out-of-the-box-auto-users don't.
I know bpwl has all the information on this.
I don't have it all, just collecting experiences and reverse engineering on what I get. e.g. my latest now, experimenting with Freeradius on Raspberry Pi (unrelated circumstance), I wanted just use that Pi everywhere. So it's 5 GHz wlan should associate and connect to a nearby wAP ac. It did NOT succeed.
Klembord-2.jpg
.
OK OK change back to the normal basic rates ....the values you get,when you go from "default" to "configured"

Klembord-3.jpg
It didn't help!!! ???
Set on "default" .... it works
Go to configured .... it is denied.

What is this? OK, lets look with (PC) WinFi tool to the beacon sent out when at "default" ....
Klembord-4.jpg
Solution is easy now, but an unexpected reason. Changing basic rates in A/G is what we usually do to move higher than 6 Mbps. And for some devices it never works ????
I'm up to the higher A/G basic rates again now, that was not the cause for the Rasberry Pi.

With MT I do learn new things every single day.
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:38 pm

I conducted more tests (very rough) in my post above with some conclusions..
 
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:11 pm

great summary and a thread to be bookmarked.
in addition dealing with ax devices and mikrotik is another challenge.
for some reason an ac 9560 works better with MT than an AX20x series card when MT is in AC only mode. Rx Tx rates fluctuate a lot on AX with MT
the same AX20x card gets 866/866 on an AC only Netgear Orbi / R7000 series.
 
toxicfusion
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Re: [hAP ac3] 2.4GHz radio faster than 5GHz?

Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:23 pm

I conducted more tests (very rough) in my post above with some conclusions..
Great tests anav!
I think the MikroTik cAP AC is more suited to be compared against the Tp-link eap-225..

Maybe someone would test the "older" MikroTik Hap AC [has triple chains...] vs the newer cAP AC or wAP AC units. Essentially all the newer ARM based based MikroTik products are only dual chain 2x2. Exception is the Audience device -- you can re-configure it to use the other 5Ghz card which has 4x5ghz.

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