Community discussions

MikroTik App
 
WCCS43
just joined
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 10, 2022 8:03 am

MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 8:15 am

Is there a page with end of life dates on hardware models? We have a client with 25 MB1200's we would like to replace. Hoping to find discontinued hardware dates.
 
User avatar
rextended
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 11967
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:49 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 10:06 am

End of life? When is broken...

End of production? Already on that...
 
tangent
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: MB1200 release dates  [SOLVED]

Tue May 10, 2022 4:13 pm

Do you mean the RB1200? I can't find anything stating when it was discontinued, but I did find a press release announcing it in May 2011, backed by this thread, for whatever that's worth.

I can't find it now, but I recall reading something about a commitment to support RouterOS on hardware for at least 5 years. I don't remember if that's 5 years past when you bought it, or 5 years past the last piece sold, or what. I wouldn't put too much reliance on that memory until someone can find it, but maybe this sparks someone to employ better search-fu than mine.
 
r00t
Long time Member
Long time Member
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:14 am

Re: MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 6:54 pm

Basically as long as it can run any of the current ROS releases, it's still supported.
AFAIK only "officially announced" obsolete devices that can't run recent ROS are MIPSLE devices (RB532 etc.).
Mikrotik doesn't block updates to old devices depending on their release date like some other vendors do.
In general as long as it have same CPU as any recent model that's still selling, it's fine for years to come (well, at least 2 years as that's warranty period, but likely more that that).
 
WCCS43
just joined
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 10, 2022 8:03 am

Re: MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 9:45 pm

End of life? When is broken...

End of production? Already on that...
EOL or “End of Life”, means that the OEM has decided that a specific product has reached the end of its “useful lifespan”. This is when they usually recommend doing a hardware refresh to the latest generation of their hardware.
But thanks for no help with my question.
 
WCCS43
just joined
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 10, 2022 8:03 am

Re: MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 9:47 pm

Basically as long as it can run any of the current ROS releases, it's still supported.
AFAIK only "officially announced" obsolete devices that can't run recent ROS are MIPSLE devices (RB532 etc.).
Mikrotik doesn't block updates to old devices depending on their release date like some other vendors do.
In general as long as it have same CPU as any recent model that's still selling, it's fine for years to come (well, at least 2 years as that's warranty period, but likely more that that).
Thanks that points in the right direction
 
WCCS43
just joined
Topic Author
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue May 10, 2022 8:03 am

Re: MB1200 release dates

Tue May 10, 2022 9:50 pm

Do you mean the RB1200? I can't find anything stating when it was discontinued, but I did find a press release announcing it in May 2011, backed by this thread, for whatever that's worth.

I can't find it now, but I recall reading something about a commitment to support RouterOS on hardware for at least 5 years. I don't remember if that's 5 years past when you bought it, or 5 years past the last piece sold, or what. I wouldn't put too much reliance on that memory until someone can find it, but maybe this sparks someone to employ better search-fu than mine.
five years sounds about right, after time the motherboard capacitors start to swell or fail. I will go with five years. Business-critical hardware, better safe than sorry
 
tangent
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:15 pm
Contact:

Re: MB1200 release dates

Wed May 11, 2022 7:43 am

the motherboard capacitors start to swell or fail. I will go with five years.

While electrolytic capacitor failure is inevitable in the long term, you can't put a reliable sunset date on it unless you're talking about a specific piece of equipment with known failure rate data.

First off, we can set aside the old "bad electrolyte" stuff. The industry has known about that problem for decades now, so you should no longer run across that, except possibly from vendors squeezing every last penny from the BoM. MikroTik are optimizers, but my sense of their design esthetic doesn't have them pushing things that far. If it were otherwise, we wouldn't be seeing the occasional threads like this one, where someone brings up still-running 10+ year old devices.

What matters in practice are the capacitor design ratings and the thermal environment they're used in.

The two key ratings are the maximum temperature rating and the expected lifetime at that rating. A really good electrolytic will be rated for 5000 hours at 105℃. This means if you run it right at the thermal limit, it's expected to hold within its specs for 5000 hours, or about three-fifths of a year. It doesn't go poof-bang not-a-capacitor at the 5001st hour. It's simply allowed to start drifting out of its specs past that point. To the extent that the design has margin, you can keep running it after that point.

If there are EEs insane enough to design a device to run right at their capacitors' thermal limits, it's still likely to have some design margin, so a device based on such capacitors might still run properly for years before failing.

This is why wall warts fail so often: cheap capacitors packed tight up against power semiconductors in a small unventilated box.

You may then ask, "Why do most electronics last well over a year if the best caps are rated for only 5000 hours?" It's because most designs aren't run right at their capacitors' thermal limits. The rule of thumb is that capacitor life doubles per 10℃ drop.

Let's posit that MikroTik put a crappy 1000 hour @ 85℃ cap in those RB1200s you have there, but the thermal design is such that even though the CPU runs right up near that temp, they put the caps far enough away from the CPU that the ambient air around the capacitor is more like 45℃. That's four doublings, 2⁴ = 16, so we can expect about 2 years of run time before it starts to eat into whatever design margin they've baked in.

To bring this thread back home, you can't say the RB1200s are due for replacement without failure rate data. I expect you're unlikely to get that out of MikroTik, but you have a fair sample size there. Have any of the RB1200s your customer owns failed yet? If not, why would you assume they're doomed? If so, what's the failure rate looking like?
 
kraal
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:24 pm

Re: MB1200 release dates

Wed May 11, 2022 10:30 am

Capacitor lifespan refers to an "expected lifespan in a known context when used 24/7". If the context is less stressfull than the expected one, lifespan can be ways longer. Temperature is indeed the most important factor for electrolytic capacitors (lifespan doubles every 10 degrees below load life rating), but other are also extremely important, such as operating voltage vs rated voltage.

To give you some examples, a 1000h/50V/80°C capacitor:

  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~2000 hours. (less than 3 months)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~4000 hours. (around 5 months and a half)
  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~4000 hours.
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~8000 hours. (less than a year)

It's definitively not suitable for a 24/7 device.
Now replace the capacitor with a a 2000h/100V/80°C capacitor you get:

  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~8000 hours. (almost a year)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~8000 hours.
  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~16000 hours. (almost two years)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~16000 hours.

Still not enough to reach the manadatory warranty of 2 years... (product pages announce often 70°C as the maximum acceptable working environment)
So replace the capacitor with a a 5000h/100V/105°C capacitor you get:

  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~113000 hours. (almost 13 years)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~113000 hours.
  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~226000 hours. (almost 26 years)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~226000 hours.

Big jump forward, but this may be a bit costly and want to save 30% on each capacitor.
So replace it now with a a 10000h/100V/80°C capacitor you get:

  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~40000 hours. (almost 6 years and a half)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 70° environment has a lifespan of ~40000 hours.
  • used with an operating voltage of 48V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~80000 hours. (almost 13 years)
  • used with an operating voltage of 24V in a 60° environment has a lifespan of ~80000 hours.

6 years in a half up to 13 years seems to be a reasonable target from a device producer nowadays (given also technology evolution).
Now who has devices running in a 70° envrionment ?
Remember that 10°C less means doubling the lifespan.
Food for thought for those not willing to invest in cooling: evaluate the right tradeoff in your context.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Thasaidon and 18 guests