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orel
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wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Thu Jun 16, 2022 3:56 pm

Hello,

I am trying to set up a wifi bridge between my ISP's modem/router and the IPTV box also provided by my ISP.

The configuration I'm trying to set up is similar to Bridging Networks with SXT, because in order to work the IPTV box must be on the same network as the modem/router of my ISP. Until now I was using PLC adpatater but the connection is not very stable.

My setup looks like this :
ISP modem/router <-- eth link --> hAPac3 <-- wireless link --> hAPac2 <-- eth link --> iptv box
From hAPac2 I have network connectivity (applications like netflix or molotov works, a ping to the LAN or internet is OK), but the IPTV box does not connect with the modem/router of my provider.

I don't filter anything on the firewall of the 2 mikrorik router, the nat is disabled, dhcp sever and client are disabled. See detailled config :

hAPac 3
[admin@hAPac3] > export hide-sensitive 
/interface bridge
add admin-mac=**** auto-mac=no comment=defconf name=bridge
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] band=2ghz-b/g/n channel-width=20/40mhz-XX \
    country=france disabled=no distance=indoors frequency=auto installation=\
    indoor mode=ap-bridge ssid=MikroTik wireless-protocol=802.11 wmm-support=\
    enabled
set [ find default-name=wlan2 ] band=5ghz-a/n/ac channel-width=20/40/80mhz-XXXX \
    country=france disabled=no distance=indoors frequency=auto installation=\
    indoor mode=ap-bridge ssid=MikroTik wireless-protocol=802.11 wmm-support=\
    enabled
/interface list
add comment=defconf name=WAN
add comment=defconf name=LAN
/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] authentication-types=wpa2-psk management-protection=\
    allowed mode=dynamic-keys supplicant-identity=MikroTik
/interface bridge port
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether2
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether3
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether4
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether5
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wlan1
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wlan2
add bridge=bridge interface=ether1
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=LAN
/interface list member
add comment=defconf interface=bridge list=LAN
add comment=defconf interface=ether1 list=WAN
/ip address
add address=192.168.1.3/24 interface=bridge network=192.168.1.0
/ip dhcp-client
add comment=defconf interface=ether1
/ip dhcp-server network
add address=192.168.88.0/24 comment=defconf gateway=192.168.88.1
/ip dns
set allow-remote-requests=yes servers=192.168.1.254
/ip dns static
add address=192.168.88.1 comment=defconf name=router.lan
/ip firewall nat
add action=masquerade chain=srcnat comment="defconf: masquerade" disabled=yes \
    ipsec-policy=out,none out-interface-list=WAN
/routing bfd interface
set [ find default=yes ] disabled=yes
/system identity
set name=hAPac3
/tool mac-server
set allowed-interface-list=LAN
/tool mac-server mac-winbox
set allowed-interface-list=LAN


hAPac 2
[admin@hAPac2] > export hide-sensitive 
/interface bridge
add admin-mac=**** auto-mac=no comment=defconf name=bridge
/interface list
add comment=defconf name=WAN
add comment=defconf name=LAN
/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] supplicant-identity=MikroTik
add authentication-types=wpa2-psk management-protection=allowed mode=dynamic-keys name=client supplicant-identity=""
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] band=2ghz-b/g/n channel-width=20/40mhz-eC country=france disabled=no distance=indoors frequency=2447 \
    installation=indoor mode=station-bridge security-profile=client ssid=MikroTik wireless-protocol=802.11 wmm-support=enabled
set [ find default-name=wlan2 ] band=5ghz-a/n/ac channel-width=20/40/80mhz-Ceee country=france disabled=no distance=indoors frequency=5580 \
    installation=indoor mode=station-bridge security-profile=client ssid=MikroTik wireless-protocol=802.11 wmm-support=enabled
/ip dhcp-server
add interface=bridge name=defconf
/ip hotspot profile
set [ find default=yes ] html-directory=flash/hotspot
/interface bridge port
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether2
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether3
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether4
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether5
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wlan1
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wlan2
add bridge=bridge interface=ether1
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=LAN
/interface list member
add comment=defconf interface=bridge list=LAN
add comment=defconf interface=ether1 list=WAN
/ip address
add address=192.168.1.2/24 interface=bridge network=192.168.1.0
/ip dhcp-client
add comment=defconf interface=ether1
/ip dhcp-server network
add address=192.168.88.0/24 comment=defconf gateway=192.168.88.1
/ip dns
set allow-remote-requests=yes servers=192.168.1.254
/ip dns static
add address=192.168.88.1 comment=defconf name=router.lan
/ip firewall nat
add action=masquerade chain=srcnat comment="defconf: masquerade" disabled=yes ipsec-policy=out,none out-interface-list=WAN
/ip route
add distance=1 gateway=192.168.1.254
/routing bfd interface
set [ find default=yes ] disabled=yes
/system identity
set name=hAPac2
/tool mac-server
set allowed-interface-list=LAN
/tool mac-server mac-winbox
set allowed-interface-list=LAN


Would you have an idea to explain this connectivity problem only for the IPTV box?
 
orel
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:09 pm

Hello every one

I was able to make some progress on my problem to have the IPTV stream through 2 mikrotik bridges.

I installed the missing multicast packets on my 2 routers, then I enabled the igmp-snooping option on the bridge of each of the 2 routers as indicated in the doc Bridge IGMP/MLD snooping and it worked !

But only for a few days... I had to cut the power in my apartment and restart the 2 mikrotik bridges and the router of my ISP and since then it's KO again, even though there was no change in configuration. However, the connection (except multicast) still works between the IPTV box and the router of my provider (e.g. netflix is OK).

what I can see from hAPac3
[admin@hAPac3] > /interface bridge mdb print
GROUP                                                        VID PORTS             BRIDGE            
232.0.4.33                                                       wlan1             bridge            
239.255.3.22                                                     wlan1             bridge            
239.255.255.250                                                  wlan1             bridge            
239.255.255.251                                                  wlan1             bridge            

[admin@hAPac3] > /interface bridge monitor bridge
                     ;;; defconf
                  state: enabled
    current-mac-address: 2C:C8:1B:F6:C7:79
            root-bridge: no
         root-bridge-id: 0.00:26:86:00:00:00
         root-path-cost: 10
              root-port: ether1
             port-count: 7
  designated-port-count: 2
           fast-forward: no
       multicast-router: no

[admin@hAPac3] > /interface bridge port monitor [find]
                 interface: ether2        ether3        ether4        ether5        wlan1           wlan2           ether1
                    status: in-bridge     in-bridge     in-bridge     in-bridge     in-bridge       in-bridge       in-bridge
               port-number: 4             5             6             7             1               2               3
                      role: disabled-port disabled-port disabled-port disabled-port designated-port designated-port root-port
                 edge-port: no            no            no            no            no              no              no
       edge-port-discovery: yes           yes           yes           yes           yes             yes             yes
       point-to-point-port: yes           yes           yes           yes           no              no              yes
              external-fdb: no            no            no            no            no              no              no
              sending-rstp: yes           yes           yes           yes           yes             yes             no
                  learning: no            no            no            no            yes             yes             yes
                forwarding: no            no            no            no            yes             yes             yes
            root-path-cost:                                                                                         10
         designated-bridge:                                                                                         0.00:26:86:00:00:00
           designated-cost:                                                                                         0
    designated-port-number:                                                                                         1
          multicast-router: no            no            no            no            no              no              yes

what I can see from hAPac2
[admin@hAPac2] > /interface bridge mdb print
GROUP                                                        VID PORTS             BRIDGE            
232.0.4.33                                                       ether2            bridge            
239.255.3.22                                                     ether2            bridge            
239.255.255.250                                                  ether2            bridge            
239.255.255.251                                                  ether2            bridge            

[admin@hAPac2] > /interface bridge monitor bridge 
                     ;;; defconf
                  state: enabled
    current-mac-address: DC:2C:6E:72:4D:A7
            root-bridge: no
         root-bridge-id: 0.00:26:86:00:00:00
         root-path-cost: 20
              root-port: wlan1
             port-count: 7
  designated-port-count: 1
           fast-forward: no
       multicast-router: no

[admin@hAPac2] > /interface bridge port monitor [find]
                 interface: ether2          ether3        ether4        ether5        wlan1                    wlan2                    ether1
                    status: in-bridge       in-bridge     in-bridge     in-bridge     in-bridge                in-bridge                in-bridge
               port-number: 4               5             6             7             1                        2                        3
                      role: designated-port disabled-port disabled-port disabled-port root-port                alternate-port           disabled-port
                 edge-port: yes             no            no            no            no                       no                       no
       edge-port-discovery: yes             yes           yes           yes           yes                      yes                      yes
       point-to-point-port: yes             yes           yes           yes           no                       no                       yes
              external-fdb: no              no            no            no            no                       no                       no
              sending-rstp: yes             yes           yes           yes           yes                      yes                      yes
                  learning: yes             no            no            no            yes                      no                       no
                forwarding: yes             no            no            no            yes                      no                       no
            root-path-cost:                                                           20                       20                       
         designated-bridge:                                                           0x8000.2C:C8:1B:F6:C7:79 0x8000.2C:C8:1B:F6:C7:79 
           designated-cost:                                                           10                       10                       
    designated-port-number:                                                           1                        2                        
          multicast-router: no              no            no            no            yes                      no                       no

Do you have any idea why multicast traffic is blocked?
 
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bpwl
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:44 pm

Interesting, very interesting the bbox-iptv connection over a ptp/ptmp wifi link.
Never tried it, had my concerns on how that link would handle "multicast" in the wifi link. Sending it out as multicast-wifi in a ptp link is not what we would like to see.
The data content may be multicast, and handled as multicast by sender and receiver, but the ptp link is clearly a unicast environment.
For ptmp it depends.

So in this case the hAP ac³ - hAP ac² link should be unicast, also for the IPTV data between the bbox (isp modem) and iptv box (recorder or TV).
What is on ether1 of hAP ac³ and ether1 on hAP ac² contains multicast as far as I understand.
IGMP will not help much unless the IPTV-box is not receiving. If it is receiving all IPTV multicast will go over the wifi link.
The wifi link should not switch to multicast transmission for that data (at "basic rate" only). That would overwhelm the wifi channel.
My initial concerns, for a whole tree of SXT links, are fully written out in this interesting document: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9119.html

Not sure if NV2 would handle multicast differently. I hoped it would, but It seems not be the case : viewtopic.php?t=54494
To be verified? Or is all to be handled by the multicast helper on FULL. Setting default is setting disabled !
At least now I see why many MT ptp demo's use EoIP or MPLS/VPLS on top of the "AP-brige + station bridge link", which is excellent for unicast anyway.
With ROS7 we have more tunnel options.
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 12:50 pm

 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 1:07 pm

It’s not expected to work. Existing threads: 1, 2.
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 5:46 pm

I don't give it up as not expected to work. There is no problem if setup as unicast only.

Stay away from multicast wifi in that link! Tunneling will do the trick, to hide any multicast payload
Multicast wifi is only at basic rates, single channel, with no ACK or retransmits. By default this is at 6Mbps interface rate (3 Mbps data rate single direction). Not good at all for this multicast video signal. It is not because the content is multicast, that the AP-client PtP link should be working in multicast.
This is and must be unicast! Having 260Mbps on a 5 GHz 40 MHz channel, 2S dual stream (with 400Mbps interface rate), is what I have daily, on 20 simultaneous SXT connections. (3 SXTsq per SXT SA5 on separate channels per SXTSA5) in unicast. I changed them all to NV2 because of better results just at that location. Link distance is 200m. End users get 180Mbps via the hAP ac² that does the client connection.

Be aware of the tunnel overhead. A PPTP tunnel will reduce it to 80Mbps, an SSTP even more. What is in that tunnel doesn't matter for the link workings, it will remain in unicast.

Of course this is a shared wifi medium. You have to get it setup right for the location. A 20Mbps streaming video is absolutly no problem in this setup, even multiple clients.

Multicast helper may mitigate the multicast problem, but there is no need at all in that PtP link to use multicast. There should be no multicast offered to the WLAN wifi interface.
What happens in a tunnel is totally masqueraded from the wifi driver. Just pay attention on the MTU size, to avoid fragmentation in the tunnel.

If the wifi sharing poses a problem, don't forget to alter the wifi WLAN interface, and use WMM for the link packages.
WMM in Mikrotik is NOT active unless you use some mangle rules in the firewall (or even bridge) to set the priority away from just best effort (priority=0) to video priority 4 or 5.
For throughput performance the A-MSDU MUST BE ENABLED for that priority. By default in Mikrotik it is disabled.
This again is in the PtP link, independent from what is transmitted in the tunnel.
Setting WMM on the payload packets will not help! Wrong place to do it.
This PtP link with priority 4-5 and WMM will take priority over the standard "best effort" PtP links or client connections, for ALL it's packets.

Refered posts on IPTV stories tell usually failure, because the wifi link is going to multicast.

In this exemple, the ether1 of hAP ac³ and hAP ac2 see and carry multicast, the wifi link AP-bridge/station-bridge should never carry multicast from IPTV.
Be aware of the L2 loop created with WLAN1 and WLAN2 simultaneous connection. Either RSTP will stop one connection, or you have a loop.

So one possible setup is to use WLAN1 as regular AP, connected to the bridge just as ether1, in hAP ac². It will be able to handle multicast to clients if so desired.
It is clear that WLAN2 cannot be connected to the bridge in hAPac³ or hAPac², as in that case it could receive multicast packets.
The tunnel ends are connected to the bridges, not the carrying WLAN2 link.

Remark: WMM is for 802.11, NV2 has it's own QOS: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/ ... m-mikrotik
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:24 pm

Multicast wifi is only at basic rates, single channel, with no ACK or retransmits.

The issue with multicast being throttled over most WiFi implementations is a side issue. Yes, it's bad, and yes, it contributes to the problem, but I've seen the same problems I reference in the other posts with unicast VoD.

The core problem is real-time streaming protocols like RTP and MPEG-TS over raw UDP, not multicast. When you have a 20 Mbit/sec stream (e.g. a full-width ATSC or DVB channel packaged as MPEG-TS) it doesn't matter if you have 200 Mbit/sec of aggregate bandwidth if it's being interrupted occasionally, when those interruptions last long enough. With 30fps video, you have 1/30 sec real-time windows that you must must must hit, each and every time, and if you miss a single one, you end up corrupting anywhere from half a second of video to many seconds worth.

Contrast pseudo-streaming protocols like HLS and MPEG-DASH, where large buffers allow the service to paper over these interruptions. This is why none of the major over-the-top video services use proper streaming any more: because they know a large fraction of their clients will be using their services over WiFi.

I believe the OP's problem is that he's got traditional IPTV, which is still widespread even here in the YouTube era, primarily from the old cable companies turned Internet providers. They have a tremendous investment in infrastructure, all designed for wired (i.e. cable) connections. When you try to shove such protocols over a WiFi link, they fail because they were designed before WiFi even existed. (Late 1980s.)

I'm not telling you traditional IPTV cannot possibly work. I'm just telling you that it is my professional experience from ~22 years in IPTV that it very often fails.

But hey, you're welcome to go try it and see for yourself. Get an ATSC/DVB to IP converter like an HDHomeRun, and run it over WiFi. It'll be fine in your clean lab, but then when you give it any kind of real-world challenge — turning on the microwave, or holding a dance party in between the WiFi router and the IPTV STB, or starting a big download in the background, or... — you can count on it to choke, gasp, and break up.

TCP pseudo-streaming won't fail anywhere near as easily because it's got a 5-30 second buffer to play from while the problem clears.

That brings us to the next problem, which is that these IPTV services are normally DRM'd all to hell, so you can't repackage them as HLS or similar, working around the problem in a sensible way.
 
orel
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 08, 2022 10:50 pm

Thanks for the feedback, I'm not a professional, and I see that I still have 2 or 3 things to learn about networking ;-)

As soon as I get some time, I'll try to follow the tunnel idea. Anyway, the cable option is not possible in my case and the PCL does not work anymore after a firmware update...

For the tunnel config, I found these pages on the wiki: Transparently Bridge two Networks using MPLS / Transparently Bridge two Networks using MPLS extended

By the way, while looking for documentation on the subject I found an RFC that talks about multicast via wifi → RFC 9119
Multicast Considerations over IEEE 802 Wireless Media
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Wed Nov 09, 2022 10:46 am

I see that I still have 2 or 3 things to learn about networking ;-)

It's a fascinating and deep field. "Plug the cables in and turn it on" is step 1, not the final step. 🤓

I'll try to follow the tunnel idea.

🤷‍♂️ Maybe N-way MIMO and the latest 802.1abgnxyzqrtstuv standard will keep your train on the tracks. All I know is that every time I've attempted this inside a cinderblock-and-rebar commercial building filled with BYOD-laden people, it broke my company's traditional IPTV systems. Still, I'm willing to concede that your situation may well be much less fraught than the ones I repeatedly find myself dealing with.

the cable option is not possible in my case

In a world where transoceanic cables are plentiful, that is surely an exaggeration. You must mean you don't want to run a cable, not to claim that it is outright impossible.

I found an RFC that talks about multicast via wifi

The problems with multicast are several:

  1. The most widespread common protocols that use it are low-bandwidth.
  2. Wide-bandwidth exceptions like IPTV are generally constrained to private LANs; in cases like yours, practices like locating the cable modem in the entertainment rack takes care of the bulk of the remaining edge cases.
  3. Multicast breaks down to broadcast over wired connections unless you go out of your way to configure services like IGMP snooping and IGMP queriers.
  4. Everything is broadcast over WiFi, being a shared medium.

Hence, expertise on making multicast over WiFi efficient out of the box is scarce. Most people ignore it, leaving it all set at its defaults, ignoring it until it breaks outright.
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Mon Nov 14, 2022 11:55 am

Everything is broadcast over WiFi, being a shared medium.
Yes it is shared, and radio-technically sending something is broadcast.

But Wifi knows at least 2 ways to send something.

Wifi Unicast, to be received by one connection based on MAC address, and to be ACKed by that receiver or retransmitted (at the same or lower interface rate). Failed transmissions will lower the MCS interface rate, successes will rise that rate. 802.11n onwards uses MIMO multiple streams (antenna) to multiply the interface rate (e.g. 400Mbps on 1S, 866Mbps on 2S for MCS09 in 802.11ac.)

Wifi Multicast, to be received by all connections, is sent out at the basic rate (6Mbps mostly if not tuned) on a single stream, and is not ACKed nor retransmitted. There is no guarantee for delivery like in Wifi Unicast. Received or not is unknown.

IPTV and other multicast/broadcast recognised by the wifi driver as multicast/broadcast are transmitted as "Wifi multicast", if not corrected by the Multicast Helper and converted to "Wifi Unicast".

IPTV over "Wifi multicast" is very slow (6 Mbps interface rate) , compared to "Wifi Unicast" (866Mbps interface rate).
This is different from ethernet wire connections, where unicast and multicast/broadcast are all at the same wire speed.
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:25 pm

Wifi Multicast, to be received by all connections, is sent out at the basic rate (6Mbps mostly if not tuned)

I understand that. I am simply predicting that if you increase the basic rate to cover your IPTV stream's needs, you'll still run into problems.

is not ACKed nor retransmitted

For IPTV, there would be no point. There is almost certainly no one to report the loss to. There do exist forward error recovery schemes for IPTV, but they're rarely used.

There is no guarantee for delivery like in Wifi Unicast. Received or not is unknown.

Yes, all to my point: if anything interrupts even a single WiFi frame of data, it will likely corrupt dozens to hundreds of video frames of data due to the frame interdependency of modern video codecs. This is true whether you use unicast, broadcast, multicast, or anycast.

On-the-wire corruption is exceedingly rare. Over-the-air corruption is considerably less rare.
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:48 pm

is not ACKed nor retransmitted

For IPTV, there would be no point. There is almost certainly no one to report the loss to.
The ACKs and retransmissions that @bpwl is talking about are between AP and client on the radio MAC (media access) layer (L2). For wifi unicasts retransmissions can happen on L2 ensuring delivery of correct frames ... this retransmission is much faster than higher layer retransmissions (e.g. TCP which does retransmissions end-to-end). For wifi broadcasts retransmissions can't happen.

How good is this mechanism? I've no idea about performance in WiFi but similar stuff (HARQ, FEC and what not) works pretty good in 4G and 5G, it can save as much as 20% of data from being retransmitted on L4 (or from being lost if higher layers don't do retransmissions). And all of it at cost of increased delay jitter.
Even most VoIP implementations can tolerate a few tens of milliseconds of delay jitter, non-interactive streaming (such as multicast IPTV) is designed to handle up to seconds (by using buffer of tens of seconds). These applications typically don't fare well with lost packets ...
 
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Re: wifi bridge between bbox and iptv

Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:14 pm

On-the-wire corruption is exceedingly rare. Over-the-air corruption is considerably less rare.
But wifi corruption is detected and corrected. (wifi unicast)

I consider wifi unicast as a guaranteed delivery for packets if the connection is not dropped. There is a checksum per MSDU. If not acked, in MT it is retried 7 times at the same interface rate, if still not acked, MT will lower the interface rate and try again 7 times. If at the lowest rate (6Mbps) already and still not acked, MT will retry for the "disconnect timeout" time (default=3 sec) , every "On fail retry time" (default=100msec). If it still fails then "disconnect excessive errors" will occur, and packet and connection is dropped.
The "Frame Lifetime" timeout could drop the packet. (but this is disabled by default)

See "What is HW retries setting" and "How to fine-tune the wireless link with hw-retries?" in https://help.mikrotik.com/docs/display/ ... leshooting

Rising the basic rate, for wifi multicast, has no such checksum-check and retransmit, and will indeed still give problems for IPTV packets missing or corruptions.

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