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Techtress
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hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:12 am

Greetings forum,

Just found the hAP lite TC router and thinking of getting it. I live in the goonies with only b12 T-Mobile 4g LTE towers as my best internet option using TMHI, but unfortunately that means my speeds are typically 20/5 with bursts of up to 40 mbps. I also live with a family who shares this connection.

We're not all heavy users but I like to game. And every time anyone loads a webpage or watches a video it hogs ALL the bandwidth until said task is finished. The latency is generally ok when nothing else is happening, but the moment anyone does anything internet-related it causes a lag spike. And if someone watches a movie it will hog all the bandwidth in steps. Every time it has to buffer, all the speed is used until a set amount is buffered and then it's OK for a few seconds.

I figured my only solution here is a good QoS router, but I don't want something watered-down.

So my question is: would this router be able to provide a solution, and if so what type of configuration would be best?

Thanks
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:44 am

So I got the router and I've been messing with it a bit. It's amazing how much you can get to know the actual quality of your internet (spoiler alert: it's dog----) but also just how much you can squeeze out of it under the right circumstances.

I have arrived at a solution.

First, I tried limiting speeds by static-ing IP addresses in the DHCP, grouping them into simple queues (i.e. phones, streaming devices, my gaming pc) so that I could limit the network on the other devices enough to give me enough room to game. This only kind of worked, but stressing all the devices provided both a bad experience for the other users and still caused my game to lag a bit (but not as much).

Next, I tried finding the ports my game runs on and marking those, put that in a queue tree along with unmarked, and increased the priority on the game queue. I confirmed packets were being sent back and forth so I knew it was recognizing the game's packets. But once the network became congested, the game would still lag. I figured the issue was my internet is just too slow to handle any kind of alternate traffic.

At that point I started looking into other queue solutions. I kept searching google and the tubes for solutions but most everything was "HOW TO FASTTRACK YOUR GAMES TO ELIMINATE LAG." Most were not in English as well so I had to just follow visual directions. At best, playing around with that ended mostly like the 2nd solution so not very well if at all.

Then somehow I stumbled across this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phKi_NGJfpg

And OH MY GOODNESS did this begin to bring results. I learned about buffer bloat and realized THAT was the reason my games chugged every time someone else used the internet. I didn't even see SFQ in the list of queue options but apparently you have to create the type first. What I ended up with was a single SFQ to manage my entire network. It wasn't great, but I could watch a video without the game completely pausing in time and everyone teleporting everywhere.

I wasn't satisfied though. I had heard about SQM, cake, etc... and how those were more elegant solutions to buffer bloat. Did a little more digging and found the latest video in that youtuber's playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNT3CqmVFi4

Found out my router, even though I updated it day 1, didn't actually upgrade to the latest stable release. So I went to packages and did a download&install of version 7. After a bit of tinkering, I have set up a single fq_codel queue that manages the entire ether1 interface. Followed some recommended directions for a <100mbps internet connection and ended with this:

  • Limit: 1200 packets
  • Interval: 100ms
  • Target: 2ms
  • Quantum: 300

I was still getting a bit of buffer bloat unfortunately (using https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat), and wasn't terribly happy when I figured out the reason: the quality of my 4g network is so bad it fluctuates between 10-30mbps down and 3-7mbps up. Once I set the limits to 10M/3M from like 20M/5M I got an A-grade score.

You may think "well that sucks. Not being able to use a whole 2/3 of your bandwidth sounds like the internet is really bad." And yes, you would be right that it does suck, but somehow it is actually fine. Everyone is able to browse the web and watch videos (at 480-720p) whilst others game, and there is VIRTUALLY NO LAG. Max load does cause +10-15ms lag for games sometimes but it's barely noticeable. At 10 down 3 up our connection has never been more stable. And if we want to gather and watch a big video in full HD I can just disable the queue temporarily. The best part about this solution is, even though I could mitigate the gaming lag by hogging most of the bandwidth for my PC, other PC tasks such as updating or whatever would still be able to cause lag. Now they don't because ALL PACKETS are queued fairly (to a degree).

Somehow, in an area with perhaps some of the worst possible options for internet in the entire country, I have conquered lag. It's not perfect by far, but it works. This router has been a dream and I wish I knew it existed earlier. It's amazing.

I'll probably keep tinkering with it and find out the average minimums of our connection at certain times of day and set timers for different queues, but for now it is just okay enough to not want to tear my hair out.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:30 am

nice work

good to know hap lite can do routeros 7 without problem
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:07 am

@Techtress

Glad you so thoroughly figured it out for yourself!! I keep hoping to isolate that "aha!" moment where people make that cognitive jump from "my internet is slow" to "oh! it's bufferbloat", and seriously, if you can remember the moment that triggered you finding this solution, please let me know. What keywords did you start with, what symptoms were you describing to google before finding those videos? I've tried so many analogies...

I too am totally happy to lose 2/3s of my bandwidth in order to have flat latency for multiple users, on LTE, starlink, etc. There are people trying to get cake to auto-adjust to grab more bandwidth sanely from starlink and LTE, but it's remaining dicy. The best answer is to convince the makers of those protocols to ship things like cake and fq_codel.

If you are into learning from videos - in 8 minutes here, I explain what's wrong (still) with most WiFi today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb-UnHDw02o&t=1560

This is also fun. https://blog.apnic.net/2020/01/22/buffe ... -over-yet/
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:21 am

@chechito

I wouldn't say routeros 7 runs without issues unfortunately. I've had a few instances where the CPU goes way up and hangs when multiple people try to log into the router, specifically under the 'management', 'spi', and 'unclassified' in the profiler (not even 'networking', which is weird because that's what goes up when the queue gets full). Best I've been able to do to mitigate that is A) don't use cake (very sad about this one but seems like it's too much), B) disable firewall since my gateway handles that anyway, and C) make sure only 1 phone/laptop is signed in to the router at any given time. I have some autosupouts that I might mail to support that were a result of router crashes.

The issue is, every time someone logs on, CPU goes to max load for a few seconds (up to almost a minute sometimes) before everything calms down so I gotta wait before touching any controls. Seems fine if I just leave it alone though. I upgraded the router firmware to 7.4.1 as well and overclocked CPU to 750mhz to try and help with load.

@dtaht
Glad you so thoroughly figured it out for yourself!! I keep hoping to isolate that "aha!" moment where people make that cognitive jump from "my internet is slow" to "oh! it's bufferbloat", and seriously, if you can remember the moment that triggered you finding this solution, please let me know. What keywords did you start with, what symptoms were you describing to google before finding those videos? I've tried so many analogies...

That's an interesting one! I remember finding the term "buffer bloat" when I was doing searches for "QoS", "gaming", and "lag" usually also including "mikrotik" since it's my router. So many results were unhelpful though, with most people saying "limit everything else" or "use fasttrack" or "fasttrack is useless" without actually getting to the root of the problem. From the very beginning I knew the fact that whoever loads a simple webpage or an image/video would cause ALL BANDWIDTH to be handed to them until the task was done, which would make it miserable for gamers especially. I didn't realize there was a term for that though, so I guess as a result of my searches through google and reddit I finally found the term "bufferbloat" and went from there to try and find the solution to my problem.

Unfortunately I can't remember the exact post that led me to that, but I remember searching something like "mikrotik bufferbloat gaming" in google, and if you do that the first result is that first video I linked on my post, which is what led to opening my eyes to options like bufferbloat testing, sfq, and then SQM, cake, and fq_codel. I'd say my biggest "aha!" moment came from that first video. Funny thing was I was TRYING to find a type of queue THIS WHOLE TIME that would get my WHOLE NETWORK to FAIRLY manage packets before I know about different queue types. I'd thought that concept was merely a pipe dream and didn't know about people developing things like fq_codel and cake.

Hopefully that was at least a little useful. I'll be sure to check out your video and blog post. I like learning both from videos and words/articles/whatever, depending on what type of content. I learn more from visuals watching people do things rather than someone explaining it to me so I tend to lean more towards videos, even if there's not many words.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:43 am

hAP lite TC is one of the worst possible devices to run ROS7 with that limited amount of RAM.
Netinstall ROS6 on it, use it as an AP and get better hardware for ROS7.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:07 pm

@Znevna

Yup been learning that the hard way. Looking at hEX since I can use the lite as a wireless AP without spending too much more.

Assuming both are good enough for ROS7, hEX or ac2: which would be best?
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 1:53 pm

Tough call, disregarding the wireless part.
hEX gets hardware bridge vlan filtering offload starting with ROS 7.1rc5, has more RAM.
hAP ac2 has somewhat better cores but less RAM.
Both of them lose some speed when compared to ROS6.
I'd go with hAP ac2 I think.
Try looking for an used one, they are usualy for sale from guys that didn't like the wifi performance of it.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:40 pm

Going with hex for now, although I did see some cheaper ac2 options on ebay. Reason is that base clocks are higher on cpu so I'm assuming I can overclock to higher than the ac2's OC potential if need be to run a cake queue. With a 2nd core it should not lock out the router under stress from a single queue. AFAIK cake doesn't take advantage of multiple cores (could be wrong though) so I really want a faster cpu than more cores. However, with 4 cores the ac2 might be able to free up more of a single core to handle cake so it's really a toss-up I guess.

I can return hex if it doesn't work well for what I need and I'll cop an ac2 in that case.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:52 pm

I think this is the model you have, which was supported by openwrt 19: https://openwrt.org/toh/mikrotik/rb952u ... ap_ac_lite

The reflashing procedure is a bit painful (and I wouldn't risk it on your roomates if that's the only router you got!), but after upgrading your main router, and have spare time, the openwrt release has fq_codel for wifi in it (so far as I know), and would make a good secondary AP. Some details on how that works over here: https://www.cs.kau.se/tohojo/airtime-fairness/

Yes, multiple cores help a lot for applications running on the router, not so much for forwarding packets.

Making cake multicore would be nice to do one day, but on mikrotik you'd probably have to wait another decade to see it.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:53 pm

Thank you for describing the process towards your aha moment. These days it seems sane to try to buy advertising on keywords like these, in the hope that one day, more folk link to the right things. Regrettably the bufferbloat project runs on essentially zero budget.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:05 pm

Thanks for the suggestions. I already ordered a hEX so I'm gonna see how that goes first. If hEX ends up struggling with cake but not fq_codel I'll keep it, but if it struggles with both I'll look into openwrt for my hap lite and return the hEX.

Does running fq_codel in openwrt have any advantages over the one in ROS7? Like is it a more updated version of fq_codel?

And for a dumb question: as I have the current fq_codel queue on ether1 I need it to manage both ethernet and wifi devices. My gaming PC's internal wifi card is bad (consistently blips every few seconds) plus it's far from the router, so I need to rely on a good ethernet connection but also share the fq_codel queue. When you said openwrt supports fq_codel on wifi, can I still have a similar setup on openwrt filtering everything from the internet to anything and not just to/from wifi?

Also it's a shame the bufferbloat project is not funded. For me it's quite revolutionary. I hope it can be sponsored/recognized more in the future and get some real attention and outside funding. It deserves it.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:13 pm

Turn off wifi location services and afd on osx, if that's your wifi client.

To be clear, ROS and openwrt on any given piece of hardware should have roughly the same performance, although logging into openwrt shouldn't burp as bad as ROS.

Yes, all the latest de-bloating code goes into openwrt first. So do most of the bugs. Then it goes to linux. Then... after far too long... other products inherit it. Often, with new bugs.

The "research" on the bufferbloat project many consider "done". The deployment, however, is taking too long. I'm a firm believer in kelly johnson's dictum that the engineers that designed the aircraft MUST be on the factory floor while the first ones are built, and in taking a role here in helping out around here, some new problems have cropped up that we didn't consider when we upstreamed fq_codel (2012), fq_codel for wifi (2016), and cake (2018). No research dollars since we worked on what became the apple responsiveness test. :( Got a little coming in on ax, not enough.

It's not clear to me what your topology is.

Internet - eth0 - AP - eth1 -> clients
\ - wifi1 -> clients

We usually stick an inbound and outbound shaper on eth0 in this case. Wifi itself (in openwrt) has fq_codel native on it, no need to shape it further.

I am taking a few vacation days and won't be able to reply until late next week. keep on enjoying your gaming experiences!
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:47 am

I don't have hEX yet so topology is something like this on my hap lite:

Internet-eth1 -> bridge -> (eth2-4 -> switches -> clients) / (wlan1 -> clients)

I then have a simple fq_codel queue with eth1 as the src.

Enjoy your vacation! I'll update this topic when I get my final setup figure out.

UPDATE: pre-hEX I am still running ROS7 on my hap lite but to even further mitigate cpu consumption I have disabled wifi and am using an old router as a wifi AP. Time will tell (usually about 8 hours or so) if it causes congestion enough to need a reboot. I downgraded to 7.1 because my monke brain tells me "less features = less cpu usage" assuming higher versions didn't focus on optimization. Literally just a shot in the dark to see if it likes 7.1 better.

I tried loading openwrt onto the hap lite but only got as far as netbooting luci, but it didn't have enough space to flash openwrt 19. Haven't checked to see what all 18 has yet but I've also seen that openwrt may not let me download additional packages on "4/32" devices, so if I can't download sqm on openwrt there's not much point. I am now stress-testing by having a 1080p twitch stream open and am streaming on my own twitch via-bandwidth test. Queue is maxed out on DL and UL. Gonna see how long that'll hold...

Next step is when hEX arrives to use it as my main router in ROS7, test it with both cake and fq_codel, and use my hap lite downgraded to ROS6 as a wireless AP.

UPDATE 2: With wi-fi disabled on the hap lite I am not getting those extremely long CPU hangs when I sign in on winbox. It bursts to 100 for a couple seconds then dies back down. Interesting.....

UPDATE 3: Doing an all-out stress test. Downloading a twitch stream at highest quality and uploading one of my own (bandwidth test so it's hidden) at the same time. Queue is maxed out. CPU doesn't seem to go above 40% and it hangs around 30%. Logged out of winbox and back in to see if it would hang, and it was at 100% but only for about 5 seconds. Then it went back to 30-40%.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:17 am

You could install OpenWrt in that hEX too. But be sure to backup the license and everything!
The process ain't pain free.
And I don't know where OpenWrt is currently with the mt7621 switch, I remember there were some lockups they were trying to fix.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:41 pm

Actually just might try openwrt on hEX. I was happy to see that it does support the latest version although there may be some lock up issues as you mentioned. We'll see. And yes it was quite the painful process initially for hap lite. Turns out tinypxe liked my router much better than tftpd, so I wasn't able to completely follow the guide dtaht posted (openwrt.org guides are...something else I must say). i prefer cutting edge features (of sqm especially since they apparently make their way over to openwrt first) even if not the most stable.

Found this video to be quite helpful for installing openwrt on mikrotik devices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48mcR4oGn_0

Might try installing openwrt 18 instead of 19 on the hap lite. I saw it does support an sqm package with fq_codel and even cake (not gonna try that one though).

Interestingly enough my hap lite currently has an uptime of 16 hours with fq_codel ROS 7.1 and no crashes/hangs yet. 5 seconds at 100% cpu when I signed into winbox with my pc today but it seems fine. I guess my hEX will just be for a more stable setup, but the big test is to see if it likes cake...

UPDATE: hEX arrived and I immediately installed openwrt because that's the smart thing to do right? Don't worry I saved the ROS license.

Downloaded SQM and running cake on it now. Seems to be working great so far.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:20 pm

Update 8/16

hEX is running OpenWRT 21 and hap is running OpenWRT 18. The latter at least I will keep as is.

I actually really like how simple it is to use these two routers together in OpenWRT. I'm sure something similar can be configured in ROS, but for now I have DHCP disabled in hap and have its gateway set to 192.168.1.2, while hEX is default at 192.168.1.1. So the hap acts as a simple AP extension while providing wifi, and I can easily log into either router instead of having to use winbox with MAC address shenanigans to log into a DCHP-less AC.

There do seem to be a couple weird things going on with the hEX though. The eth0 port when I monitor it shows Rx and Tx to be exactly the same. I was tearing my hair out at first trying to start the SQM and couldn't figure out why the speeds were so low. Turns out it was always limiting both download and upload to the smallest of the two. Changed the SQM interface from eth0 to wan and was finally able to decouple download and upload.

The other "weird" thing, and this probably has to do with the updated SQM algorithms, is that there seems to be a bit of a padding even after I set my kpbs limits. This probably has to do with maintaining a smaller bufferbloat, but I know on ROS I never had a problem hitting the max limits I set when no other device was doing anything. For example, if I set the DL to 12mbps on OpenWRT it fluctuates between 8 and 10. On ROS using the haplite from what I can remember using fq_codel it always hit the max limit of 10M when I set it to 10M. When I take SQM off on OpenWRT, of course the speeds soar to 15-30 mbps so I know this padding has something to do with the SQM script. In the end I'm not complaining much if that keeps max bufferbloat down, but it's slightly annoying.

I might do one more experiment and try bringing the hEX back to ROS but use version 7 and see what happens, but not for a bit as long as everyone on the network is happy with the current setup, which time will tell.
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS  [SOLVED]

Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:45 am

Update 8/17

I think I'm just dum-dum and was imagining that weird speed-padding. Found this nice tool (netdata) to monitor CPU/network usage in realtime and found that it most of the times reaches its set limit or just under when under heavy load from multiple devices. One interesting thing I found though, was that it does seem like there's some lost packets going between the internet and my LAN as seen in this attachment:

bandwidth.png

I can't see how my router alone has downloaded 1GB of data without sending it to LAN in the time its been up, considering its 16MB flash and 256MB ram size... It's interesting and I'm not quite sure what to think of this data yet. I thought maybe this was the culprit for the "speed padding" that was going on so I tried using br-lan as the SQM interface and flipping UL/DL but didn't really get different results.

At any rate the more time I spend with OpenWRT the more I like it so I think I'll keep my setup. If I have any more questions related to OpenWRT those probably belong in the OpenWRT forum.

But anyway, as a final post (for now?) I'll summarize my current topology.

  • RB750Gr3 - OpenWRT 21.02.3
    • wan: T-Mobile Gateway [SQM qdisc: cake \ script: piece_of_cake.qos]
    • lan2-4: various clients
    • lan5: RB941-2nD - OpenWrt 18.06.9
      notes: moved wan (eth0 on ROS) to VLAN1 and disabled DHCP to make it act like a switch. Set "gateway" to 192.168.1.2.
      • wan: RB750Gr3
      • lan2-4: various clients
      • wlan0: various clients

Lots of clients indeed. I live with family members right now in a 3 story house (some who come and go) and somehow everyone is quite content with a 10M down connection with multiple simultaneous users. I sometimes have to limit it to 7M during the most peak congestion hours. SQM really does work some magic. It's nowhere near perfect as I said before, but now it's a lot more stable without router-crashes. There's been talk of 250M/250M fiber being spread to our area (it's already promised so it's just a matter of time. Could be soon, could be 3-5 years from now. pls be soon......).

Thanks to all who gave suggestions and helped out.
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Mon Aug 22, 2022 8:37 pm

I'm back from vacation and you seem to have achieved satori whilst I was gone. :)

The research into trying to make cake adapt to LTE better is over here, with a shell and lua script: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/cake-w-adap ... dth/108848

There is a severe (mostly multicast related) bug in the 21.02 and 21.03 implementation of fq_codel for wifi, fixed in 22.03-rc6 and later, and hopefully 21.04 and linux kernel mainline.

There is also some work on "qosify" that might apply.

I really, really, really hope mikrotik got the fq_codel for wifi right in their new products. At higher rates all the bufferbloat moves to the wifi. Yes, cake on the ISP link first, but...
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Mon Aug 22, 2022 11:28 pm

ROuteros V7.x "new" /tool/netwatch maybe can be used for something similar, and/or /tool/traffic-monitor

just, maybe
 
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Re: hAP lite TC: 20Mbps QoS

Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:33 am

@dtaht

Wow...thanks for that link. I implemented the shell script already and have been messing around with it. I like the results so far so I'll probably go post in that forum with feedback after I tinker with it more and see how well it performs long-term. I'll also most likely read through the research because of interest and to get a better understanding BTS.

I have min at 5M, base at 7M, and max at 20M. It seems to be comfortably allowing bursts of 15-20M when someone views a website/video or downloads something without impacting lag too much. You can be quite generous with the max because of the nature of the script. It allows high speeds until latency reaches above a certain user-specified threshold, then retreats towards the base speed. And at times it can't handle base speed it crawls towards min until latency is good enough to climb back towards base.

@chechito

I'll be sure to check those out if I go back to ROS7 on any device. Might pick up an AC2 and load ROS7 on it at some point anyway just to have everything on one system so I can manually put fq_codel on the wifi. As it stands right now though, with R&D happening realtime for variable bandwidth and bufferbloat, I prefer OpenWRT as that is where most of the testing is happening. Might switch to ROS whenever fiber comes to my area just because I like the interface, PC app, and phone app better.

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