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eazysnatch
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House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:28 pm

Hey folks,

I've been using Mikrotik for more than ten years, and from my experience, I can say nothing can beat it at this price level. Of course, the downside is you need to learn the Mikrotik way, but as an old geek, I'm enjoying it.

So I'm reconstructing my house from scratch, which means I will design the entire wire and wifi network, including / servers/switches /routers/ups ...etc. I plan to use the new hAP ax2 and ax3 for my wifi. The good part is I will design the cables, and the plan is to connect everything over wires. The idea is to put a couple of Hap AX devices in CAPsMAN and create mesh networking. I want to be sure the entire house of 2 floors,, additional building one floor,, and the yard is covered. So I will start with 2 Hap AX and extent.

I was wondering if they will release Audience with Wifi6 but still nothing.

What you guys think:
- Audience/RB4011 using new wifiwave2
- You can move the devices around till you get best placement
- Hap AX2 / 3 - with WIFI6 support
- Mount on the sealing without any chance of movement but i will test them before

I know there is a little buzz over WIfi6 and stable 5GHz is totally enough but back in days I choose the Hap AC move to 5GHz and 5 years later still don't need a cable in my house, so I invest in the feature. I work form home a lot, so network must be stable.
 
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BrateloSlava
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:45 am

If you have such an opportunity to create everything from scratch, I recommend abandoning the idea of ​​using a router with built-in wifi. And use only wireless access points. And put the rest of the network equipment somewhere in a separate place. And, if possible, use another manufacturer as a supplier of equipment for wifi.

If you still decide to use wireless equipment from this manufacturer, I recommend you wait with the purchase. Most likely, a number of new equipment will be released with support for wifi 6. It is likely that the new equipment will not be compatible with the current equipment in terms of centralized control. I mean the new version of CAPsMAN.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:01 pm

...use another manufacturer as a supplier of equipment for wifi.
I very much agree. Its taken several years for my Audience to get up to WiFi5 Performance.

Going to Wave2 driver killed a lot of the functions that I wanted the Tik radios for. Particularly the functions I built into caps-man ~2018 that I had to abandon due to "the amount of interference in my environment".

This was Confirmed by Mikrotik and I was promised an update when they had a fix... been waiting since 2019.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Nov 25, 2022 6:07 pm

What you guys think:
- Audience/RB4011 using new wifiwave2
i think is better use a exclusive device for routing without-wifi, a RB5009 will be perfect and will work well as includes a switch, if you use the RB5009 Poe Version (RB5009UPr+S+IN) you can power your Wi-Fi Accesspoints direclty from it

- Hap AX2 / 3 - with WIFI6 support
- Mount on the sealing without any chance of movement but i will test them before
If you dont matter the big antennas on hAP AX3 i think is a good idea

try to not mix old equipment with new, looks like new Wi-Fi AX models will be managed independently from old equipment so start from scratch with new modells looks good
 
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BrateloSlava
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:07 pm

If you dont matter the big antennas on hAP AX3 i think is a good idea
Given that the ax2 model may have problems with heat dissipation and because of this, the processor frequency in this model is reduced - I would recommend the ax3 model. which has no such problems.
 
brg3466
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:14 pm

Can't wait to see the launch of cAP ax and wAP ax , so I can replace my cAP ac / wAP ac.

It is a pity that the CAPsMAN cannot handle the mix of wifi5 AP and wifi6 AP, hope Mikrotik will have a solution for it.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:57 am

I'd be waiting for cAP XL ac, but an AX version( who knows when ).
That said the cAP XL ac has about 3dB better RX ( on my personal tests just looking at noise floor in a RF quiet environment ), and its got 3db+ more tx power by default over a classic cAP ac too( adjustable of course for country rules ! ).

I look after a campus area with about 60 AP's( all ceiling mounted ) and by far thats the best way to have it in business and in your house too.
I have just 1x cAP ac at home on the ceiling and its great.

The other side of the coin is how fast is your internet / nas home server that your wifi devices will be accessing. Not much point if your using ax with say less than 10 devices at home all pulling down massive data.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:29 pm

Hey guys,

Thank you all for the recommendations. Here are some updates from my side:

- The plan for the house is AirBnB / rent ~ 4 bedrooms ,so lets say 10-15 people at full capacity
- Internet is optical 1GBps, one of the best provides just with media converter no crappy hardware from their side
- I'm sys admin since 2000 ,so at some point I could build everything with NetBSD / Linux / PfSense and use some good hardware like "Protectli" https://eu.protectli.com/product-comparison/


One of the ideas is to put a small 6/8U ( could be bigger) 19in rack in the basement and route entire network there ( that is main plan )
I could put some small hardware for routing - Back in days we were using old computers but they are heavy, noisy , use a ton of power. I'm very experineced in that.
Put some AP's which will use eth cable to the basement but i want to have WIFI6.

Physically I will not be in the house and i want to make it work flawlesly but i dont need ton of compute power.
Still considering some NAS ( self build ) to use it for some music service but not sure if i will do that. At home i have Synology and its running 5 years without any issue.

So at the end I'm saying i can build everything by my self because I'm a geek and im searching other geeks ideas how they will approach it.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Mar 17, 2023 12:44 am

Good news the new cAP XL is coming, and it's close: viewtopic.php?t=192384

I decide to use cAP XL ceiling APs for my WIFI, and I'm waiting for the new version.

For router still considering Netgate vs. Mikrotik vs Protectli vault

Mikrotik - Im sure it's going to work as a charm, and there is no other company to beat the price.
Netgate - I love FreeBSD and open community, and supporting is my driving force, but for Europe, the price is high
Protectli vault - Maybe the best between Mikrotik and Netgate, but people complain they fail without a reason when you start to dive deep, unsure if the new HW is updated.

I was thinking of just 1 WAN port, but these days I overview the 2 ISP ideas for which I will need 2 WANs. The house will have ~6 bedrooms lets say 12 - 15 people and the internet is 1GB ,so another provider with 100Mpbs for backup I think is going to be enough.

Prices:
https://shop.netgate.com/products/2100-base-pfsense - 350$ + 30% ( taxes ) + shipping from US to EU ( expensive )
https://eu.protectli.com/product/fw4b/ - 350$ - 330 EUR
https://rts-bg.com/bg/ethernet-routers/ ... as-rm.html - 189$
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:11 am


RB3011 is pretty outdated now. It was a truly amazing device back when it first came out, but it's outdated never the less. It'll barely route at 1Gbps. There are a much more powerful devices available now, such as RB4011 or RB5009. The later being much more advanced than the former one and I guess a true future-proof solution. Although they are both a tad more expensive than RB3011.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:44 pm


RB3011 is pretty outdated now. It was a truly amazing device back when it first came out, but it's outdated never the less. It'll barely route at 1Gbps. There are a much more powerful devices available now, such as RB4011 or RB5009. The later being much more advanced than the former one and I guess a true future-proof solution. Although they are both a tad more expensive than RB3011.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm overviewing, and I'm 100% sure the RB3011 will do the job. I'm sure the 4011 and 5009 are better devices from a technical point of view. Here are some key things:
- It will be Airbnb, so regular home internet is between 50-100Mpbs, and it's working fine. I plan to have 1000 Mbps because the provider is rock solid, simple optical cable with a media convertor without any shitty ISP equipment and its cheap.
- I don't plan to route 1GB between VLANs now, so routing nearly 1GB at full speed is not mandatory its the minimum from that ISP provider. It's up to me if i want to use an entire band or put a cheap home router and leave it at 100.

I know how to buy 50$ or 5000$ equipment and make it work. I can do it with pure Linux or FreeBSD. I set up many old 2nd hand computers working as routes, so at the end of the day, that is also an option which is the last thing I'm going to do. My Mikrotik is rock solid maybe more than 4-5y. never had a single issue every time i have some network problem the router is the last thing I blame. That does not mean that my RPi home automation is not been working for 4 years without a single issue. Is a matter of decision right now. Do I want to invest 400$ or 180$ in a router?
 
eazysnatch
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Fri Mar 17, 2023 2:47 pm

I start drawing some basic diagram ( its still in progress )

Image
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:44 pm

As Wi-Fi nowadays is mostly used, I recommend planning it accordingly. 5GHz band should be used, as the 2,4GHz band can have interference from quite a lot of sources, so that means APs should be deployed quite dense. A good, strong signal makes all the difference in stability and reliability. Mikrotik is cheap, so I recommend adding one AP per room - living room, bedrooms, kitchen and bathrooms if needed. Take into account needs and realistic use cases. When you have APs planned out, do wiring plan and racks (L2 connection points). And last, add router - 5009 should be fine, but look at your needs.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:17 am

The RB5009 is an excellent router...

Needed wifi to match
https://www.cambiumnetworks.com/product ... ess-point/
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Tue Mar 21, 2023 12:38 pm

I would never buy such a expesinve AP.

Go for AX2 or for AX3 if you need USB. AX 2 is very small and good looking. AX2 has good performace over all it is better buy than Audience.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:57 am

I would never buy such a expesinve AP.

Go for AX2 or for AX3 if you need USB. AX 2 is very small and good looking. AX2 has good performace over all it is better buy than Audience.
So just about everything is wifi only... And you would never buy an expensive one. Yeah... That's smart.

There is no way in earth I would stick an Audience in a lecture hall. Or one of my beer gardens. Or any of the hundreds of other high density installs I do.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:47 am

AX2 has good performace over all it is better buy than Audience.
I'm not sure that highlited part is true yet. This forum has plenty of threads about issues with hAP ax2 ... and none about issues with Audience. My own Audience works flawless ever since I purchased it. It came with factory software version 6.45.8, I installed 7.1.2 during unboxing, runs wifiwave2 from first minute and is rock-solid ever since.

Yes, hAP ax2 has potential to get better than Audience (perhaps, Audience has 4x4 MIMO on upper part of 5GHz band so it has potential for MU-MIMO while hAP ax2 doesn't), but currently I wouldn't say hAP ax2 is a better buy than Audience.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:38 pm

Hi,

Im absolutely convinced that AX2 is better buy than Audience. I have hAP AX2 with 300Mbit internet connection, QOS - CAKE, Wireguard, Zerotier, and it is rock solid so far.

It has new WIFI 6 standard, there is big step between WiFi 5 and WiFi 6 it is not only about speed. MU-MIMO, OFDMA, Beamforming, Target Wake Time, BSS, 1024QAM.
It has modern 64 bit CPU and it is more powerfull than IPQ-4019.
It has more RAM, 256MB vs 1GB.
It has more LAN ports. 2 vs 5
It has 2x2 MU-MIMO on WiFi 6 standard
It cost less

There is no question that AX2 is better buy than Audience.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:04 pm

@eazysnatch
Some very good suggestions made by @Rox169 and @gotsprings

I also have a suggestion that I believe will work extremely well for You ... its the TP-Link EHP660HD ... based on my experience the EHP660HD runs circles over the Mikrotik AX3 or Audience - in every way shape and form - and I heartily endorse the RB5009 as the one to get ....

Good Luck
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:54 pm

mkx which threads are you referring to? AFAIK hAP ax2 works like a charm. I use it personally too. If you have no specific report made, don't spread such false info then.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:52 pm

Would like to see the wAP AC line updated with hAP x2 innards. Don't want install hAP x2 because they look like little switches to clients.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:20 pm

MU-MIMO, OFDMA, Beamforming, Target Wake Time, BSS, 1024QAM.
MU-MIMO doesn't work well with only 2 chains/antennae on AP
OFDMA helps where there are many concurrent users (not likely in SOHO environment)
Beamforming doesn't work well with only 2 antennae ... unlike hAP ax2 Audience actually does have 4 antennae and can support beam forming properly
Target Wake Time helps with latency of inactive devices, not something most users care about
BSS ... what exactly do you mean by that?
1024QAM helps in great radio conditions, i.e. when station is a few metres away from AP and there's no obstruction between both ... If station can not maintain connection at maximum rate on older APs (e.g. 866Mbps on AC AP), then 1024QAM won't be used much

Yes, there are features of hAP ax2 which give it clear advantage over Audience in certain use cases. But I have my doubts about absolute superiority of hAP ax2 over Audienceand I expressed them pretty mildly (compared to other posts in this thread).

There have been reports of having not great signal strength from hAP ax2 (I certainly hope it's a fixable issue; lower signal strength almost always means worse performance, defeating some of benefits of ax). I don't think that MT commented in those threads so reaction by @Normis to my previous post is, IMO, over reaction.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Thu Mar 23, 2023 1:46 am

don't spread such false info then.
I'm not a sales guy, but maybe saying they're both great devices be a better approach? Or just "AX is more future proof & it's what I use". Or our support team is here if you have problems... Than attacking your customers for sharing. :)

But publishing some polar plots of the antennas or other wireless performance data for your devices help with these sorts of decisions. The Audience has higher gain and more chains, if you don't have AX devices, that should perform better, no?
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:50 am

If MT wifi products had decent documentation, clear paths to setup, and users could understand all the available features and
setup the APs with relative ease and they worked and provided consistent stable throughput, perhaps nOrmands you would have a leg to stand on to "get aggressive with mkx".
Clearly this is not the case going through all the forum posts. As AMMO alluded far more transparency on capabilities and planned work would smooth over disgruntled feathers somewhat.

I pointed out the need for MT to get serious about WIFI and hire BPWL for example to take 6mos-1yr to work with your engineers to decipher what the equipment could do should do and how to write up documentation so success can be achieved fairly regularly. No, instead MT continues to push what looks like half finished products out the door, with promises of functionality that have been on other wifi router for probably a decade, with other functions on previous models but missing on newer ones, and generally wifi6 functionality that is not clear to comprehend or use, why show 80+ or 160 if its not actually available...... All in all a hot confusing mess and nowhere near the quality of lets say the RB5009.

viewtopic.php?t=192727#p991128
viewtopic.php?t=192727#p991164
viewtopic.php?t=192727#p991264

I have an AX3 sitting in another room and got family to buy one in Europe, hopefully I will get the courage to play with it but I am really waiting for someone else to actually figure it all out because I dont have the time or patience. I tried a couple of times and got so bogged down in the menus that I gave up. I have a tplink eap243 that crushed any wifi5 offering from MT and so far the TPLink EAP660HD seems like a decent wifi6 option, however when I see (but dont believe) some forum users getting 900Mpbs on an AXE3, which would be awesome and amazing if true and we could dispense with talking about any other options!!!!, BUT HOW COME its seemingly a rare thing for people to achieve????? I think I am going to buy a zyxel WIFI6E AP model and see how that goes........ Tad more expensive aka double the cost, but if it actually works out of the box.......its worth it!

Summary: RoS combined with crappy wifi/wifi wave2package is an INSULTINGLY poor companion to the fabulous RoS and pushes clients towards other solutions.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:01 pm

If MT wifi products had decent documentation, clear paths to setup, and users could understand all the available features and
setup the APs with relative ease and they worked and provided consistent stable throughput, perhaps nOrmands you would have a leg to stand on to "get aggressive with mkx".
Clearly this is not the case going through all the forum posts. As AMMO alluded far more transparency on capabilities and planned work would smooth over disgruntled feathers somewhat.

Summary: RoS combined with crappy wifi/wifi wave2package is an INSULTINGLY poor companion to the fabulous RoS and pushes clients towards other solutions.
Did you have chance to test AX3?
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:22 pm

Did you have chance to test AX3?
@Rox169
You did not see "I tried a couple of times and got so bogged down in the menus that I gave up." learn how to read :D
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:50 pm

Did you have chance to test AX3?
@Rox169
You did not see "I tried a couple of times and got so bogged down in the menus that I gave up." learn how to read :D
Well, it is difficult to believe that a guy who can spot a WG/firewall/bridge-vlan issue from outer space in seconds is having trouble ;)

My question to @anav, is if you reset to defaults, connect your WAN, perhaps set "Canada" in QuickSet if not already, how well does the default Wi-Fi settings work? That be a good baseline to know :).
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:56 pm

I already provided him my working baseline (ok, for Belgium ...).
Didn't hear back from him on that one.

I think where most people freak out with wifiwave2 is on the menu structure. If you have experience with capsman, it's pretty similar so the learning curve is rather small.
But if you never used capsman before (and I think to know anav hates it to death :lol: ) the step to wifiwave2 can be "challenging".
The fact quite some things are being added as versions pass by and some even only via CLI, doesn't help right now, I admit that.

But as you say, for someone able to spot VLAN-issues from the other side of the globe, wifiwave2 should be easy-peasy.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:03 pm

I wish it were true. If I wanted set to defaults and that was it, I wouldnt buy MT for wifi.
MT for wifi should provide the ability for the user to setup the config optimized for ones particular scenario.
The structure and presentation should lead to a logical setup methodology.
So far all I see is inter-connected menus that step all over each other leading no where.
They have added a gazillion menu items but one needs bpwl on steroids to make sense of most off them.

As for vlans, I owe any skills I have to finding my multitude of repeatable mistakes, to sindy being a damn perfectionist, think YODA with a big cane!
The only reason I find stuff, is oh yeah I made that dumb mistake 10 times already and to be honest also watching mks solve a thread right under my nose, with a better eagle eye.........
said fondly of course!!
Last edited by anav on Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: House wifi6 network with Mikrotik AX or Audience

Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:14 pm

I wish it were true. If I wanted set to defaults and that was it, I wouldnt buy MT for wifi.
I guess the question is how bad does it start out of the box. e.g. does it even need optimizing?

MT for wifi should provide the ability for the user to setup the config optimized for ones particular scenario.
Not to pick a fight for sure. But QuickSet does have modes at top left. e.g. if I plug a LTE modem into the AX3 USB, QuickSet then offers the options to set the APN etc. and switches to that configuration mode. That's pretty smart I think.

If the question is should they help more for the VLAN-your-network stuff, different question than Audience vs AX.

On the topic, the USB port is handy, and not on Audience (or AX2 for that matter)...

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