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rrawstron
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cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 2:13 pm

Having recently purchased a cAP ax I've set it up to compare performance against an existing cAP ac.
I'm surprised and disappointed by the (quick and dirty) test results.

Broadly speaking I'm finding:
  1. cAP ax 5GHz AX performance is sometimes, but not consistently, better then cAP ac 5GHz AC
  2. cAP ax 2GHz AX performance is typically worse than cAP ac 2GHz N
  3. cAP ax signal strength is generally better (as seen via Registration signal)
  4. Orientation of the cAP makes a difference which doesn't align with the idea that the radiation pattern is roughly spherical
    See viewtopic.php?t=131467#p645555
On this basis it's hard to recommend the cAP ax over the cAP ac.
Am I missing something?
Have I screwed up the config?
Are others getting similar results? viewtopic.php?t=207944

Does Mikrotik provide radiation patterns to help better understand why orientation makes a difference?
Based on this thread the answer is no. viewtopic.php?t=131467#p645555

The setup is
  • RB951G-2HnD, RbcAPGi-5aD2nD (cAP ac), cAPGi-5HaxD2HaxD (cAP ax)
  • RouterOS 7.15.2 on all devices
  • cAP ac has wifi-qcom-ac, cAP ax has wifi-qcom package
  • Client is Dell XPS 13 (9300) with Rivet Killer AX1650s (Intel Corporation Ice Lake-LP PCH CNVi WiFi) which supports WiFi-6 (AX) running Linux Mint 21.3.
  • Client is approx 7.5m from cAPs with direct line of sight i.e. no walls etc
  • cAPs connected using the same port and ethernet cable, with PoE injector
    Each cAP is connected, tested and then swapped with the other cAP to avoid channel interference
  • Test file is 2GB stored on a file server connected via ethernet to the RB951G
The radio config is (see config export below)
  • cap-wifi1 cAP ax 5Ghz AX 20/40/80Mhz 5680/ax/eCee
  • cap-wifi2 cAP ax 2Ghz AX 20/40Mhz 2412/ax/Ce
  • cap-wifi3 cAP ac 2Ghz N 20/40Mhz 2412/n/Ce
  • cap-wifi4 cAP ac 5Ghz AC 20/40/80Mhz 5680/ac/eCee
Testing was completed by running the following command on the laptop time scp username@host:/path/to//2GB_test_file ~
The quick and dirty results are:
cAP Orientation - Vertical facing client (at roughly the same height as client)
cAP ax 5Ghz performance better but 2Ghz performance worse.
Radio           Channel         Speed       Time        Signal
cAP ax 5Ghz	5680/ax/eCee    67.0MB/s    00:00:28    -57
cAP ax 2Ghz	2412/ax/Ce      2.5MB/s     00:12:50    -54
cAP ac 2Ghz	2412/n/Ce       5.5MB/s     00:05:47    -62
cAP ac 5Ghz	5680/ac/eCee    37.9MB/s    00:00:50    -74
cAP Orientation - Flat facing upwards (at roughly the same height as client)
cAP ax 5Ghz performance worse but 2Ghz performance better.
Radio           Channel         Speed       Time        Signal
cAP ax 5Ghz	5680/ax/eCee    32.8MB/s    00:00:58    -62
cAP ax 2Ghz	2412/ax/Ce      5.0MB/s     00:06:21    -51
cAP ac 2Ghz	2412/n/Ce       4.2MB/s     00:07:47    -68
cAP ac 5Ghz	5680/ac/eCee    51.2MB/s    00:00:36    -76
cAP Orientation - Flat facing downwards (at roughly the same height as client)
cAP ax 5Ghz performance better but 2Ghz performance worse.
Radio           Channel         Speed       Time        Signal
cAP ax 5Ghz	5680/ax/eCee    62.3MB/s    00:00:30    -60
cAP ax 2Ghz	2412/ax/Ce      2.7MB/s     00:11:55    -55
cAP ac 2Ghz	2412/n/Ce       3.1MB/s     00:10:18    -69
cAP ac 5Ghz	5680/ac/eCee    40.2MB/s    00:00:47    -75
And the RB951G-2HnD CAPsMAN wifi config:
/interface wifi channel
add band=2ghz-n disabled=no frequency=2412-2462 name=cap_ch2n skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac
add band=5ghz-ac disabled=no name=cap_ch5ac skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac
add band=2ghz-ax disabled=no frequency=2412-2462 name=cap_ch2ax skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac
add band=5ghz-ax disabled=no name=cap_ch5ax skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac
/interface wifi security
add authentication-types=wpa2-psk,wpa3-psk disabled=no name=cap_sec1
/interface wifi
add channel.band=5ghz-ax .frequency=5680 .width=20/40/80mhz configuration.country="New Zealand" .mode=ap .ssid=capax5 disabled=no name=cap-wifi1 radio-mac=D4:01:C3:58:88:8B security=cap_sec1
add channel.band=2ghz-n .frequency=2412 .width=20/40mhz configuration.country="New Zealand" .mode=ap .ssid=capax2 disabled=no name=cap-wifi2 radio-mac=D4:01:C3:58:88:8C security=cap_sec1
/interface wifi datapath
add bridge=bridge disabled=no name=cap_dp1
/interface wifi
add channel.band=2ghz-n .frequency=2412 .width=20/40mhz configuration.mode=ap .ssid=capac2 datapath=cap_dp1 name=cap-wifi3 radio-mac=2C:C8:1B:43:6E:D0 security=cap_sec1
add channel.band=5ghz-ac .frequency=5680 .skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac .width=20/40/80mhz configuration.country="New Zealand" .mode=ap .ssid=capac5 datapath=cap_dp1 name=cap-wifi4 radio-mac=2C:C8:1B:43:6E:D1 security=cap_sec1
/interface wifi capsman
set enabled=yes interfaces=bridge package-path="" require-peer-certificate=no upgrade-policy=none
 
jaclaz
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 3:30 pm

The notion that the emission is roughly spherical is (IMHO) "wrong".

It is (should be) omnidirectional as a toroid in the same plane of the device, and likely the performance when front-facing is due to either the "thickness" of the toroid or to reflections (or *whatever").

When it is placed in the same orientation as it should be (fixed to a ceiling) it is very likely that the signal is better if the client is at a lesser height.

A picture of the internal of a cap ac2, the antennas are on the PCB:
Image

A picture of the internals of a cap ax2, the antennas are external:
Image

Is the (aluminum? inox?) ring an antenna (front facing) or a shield? (I believe the latter but cannot really say).

Since in all cases you tested the Ax has better signal levels than the Ac, the differences in speed are more likely to be connected to some quirks in software, drivers (or *whatever*), the configurations (right or wrong as they may be) are the same, so they are comparable, unless there is some differences in the way the commands are implemented in wifi-qcom-ac vs. wifi-qcom.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 3:54 pm

The cAP AX have better performance in the room on 5GHz, but after one wall CAP AC have a little bit strong and stable signal and higher speeds are achieved regardless of the old AC standard. If better antennas with better quality pigtails are used in cAP AX, the performance can be improved!
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 4:32 pm

Well, the tests were made with no walls:
  • Client is approx 7.5m from cAPs with direct line of sight i.e. no walls etc
Any suggestions for the "better" antennas?

(in any case the WAF will jump from the current -37 to -142.5 if you apply external antennas to a CAP Ax).
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 5:15 pm

....
Any suggestions for the "better" antennas?

(in any case the WAF will jump from the current -37 to -142.5 if you apply external antennas to a CAP Ax).
For example:
Image
or something like this
Image
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 5:28 pm

Nice pictures, thanks.

Still I will try to re-word the question.

Any suggestion on which specific antennas one can buy that have been tested as being better than the built-in ones? (and that if internal will fit inside a Cap Ax)
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Thu Jul 25, 2024 6:22 pm

Nice pictures, thanks.

Still I will try to re-word the question.

Any suggestion on which specific antennas one can buy that have been tested as being better than the built-in ones? (and that if internal will fit inside a Cap Ax)
The cheapest solution is green or yellow model
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:23 pm

Seems like it's all just due to antenna radiation patterns. The cAP ac antennas are listed as ~2 dBi gain, while the cAP ax antennas are ~6 dBi. So it's no wonder it performs better in some places in some tests, and worse in others. Your "doughnuts" are more squished.

MikroTik seems to really love high-gain antennas as of late. They probably have a reason for it, but it can be a bit annoying, yes. I'd sell "antenna downgrade" kits, if I were them, along with providing an option to lower antenna-gain slightly in latest RouterOS releases. Maybe not to 0 dBi, but at the very least to 2 dBi. It can't really do that much harm, when users can change the country setting anyway.

But in terms of importance, all of that, of course, pales in comparison to one thing... Can we just talk about the fact that cAP ax has pads for M.2/mPCIe connectors and Quectel LTE thing? Whaa? Is MikroTik reusing this board in some different thing, or were they thinking of selling cAP ax LTE kits, lol?
Last edited by Nullcaller on Fri Jul 26, 2024 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:37 pm

The notion that the emission is roughly spherical is (IMHO) "wrong".

It is (should be) omnidirectional as a toroid in the same plane of the device, and likely the performance when front-facing is due to either the "thickness" of the toroid or to reflections (or *whatever").

All PCB antenna radiation patterns I can find with a quick Google search look more like a potato than a toroid. They're really not even spherical or elliptical. 'Potato' is the best description I've got, personally.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 5:32 pm

Enough antenna noise lol, The question seems to be ............. should we demand refunds and sue MT for false advertising.......
Or is this just a question from the OP --> have we accepted less performance for the benefit of ax standard??

From their brochure.....

With the Generation6 802.11ax wireless standard, we’re looking at up to 40% higher speed
in the 5 GHz and up to 90% higher speed in the 2.4 GHz spectrum, if we compare it to
the previous generations
! But what’s more important than speed is the stability. Our latest
AX devices can withstand and navigate even the toughest wireless interference scenarios,
offering the most stable and uninterrupted signal to date!
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 7:06 pm

Some official documentation:
Cap Ax:
https://fccid.io/TV7CPG52X
https://fccid.io/TV7CPG52X/Test-Report/ ... 299616.pdf

Cannot find the corresponding document for CapAC:
https://fccid.io/TV7CPGI5ACD2ND
maybe the diagrams are inside some of the other documents.

More than potatoes, the diagrams look like some strange alien berries.
 
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infabo
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 10:41 pm

Ok, Mikrotik does radiation pattern testing. And it is public available. Interesting. Not long ago I asked Normis in another topic about antennas why Mikrotik does not publish antenna radiation pattern like some/many other enterprise equipment vendors do. IIRC his answer was like: why bother? All APs are near omnidirectional.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Fri Jul 26, 2024 11:42 pm

Why are the speeds so slow on your cap ax in general, Im hitting on mine on 5G 80 wide -53 cAP AX facing down. Testing with two intel ax200 cards.
1GB.zip 100% 1024MB 95.8MB/s 00:10
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 9:43 am

95MB/s on a 2 chain 802.11ax 5Ghz link with -53 signal you say is crappy?
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 10:40 am

[*]Client is Dell XPS 13 (9300) with Rivet Killer AX1650s (Intel Corporation Ice Lake-LP PCH CNVi WiFi) which supports WiFi-6 (AX) running Linux Mint 21.3.
Ahh that might explain the OP's speed problem. what is that intel ax201
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 11:22 am

any known issues with killer AX1650? I don't get it.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 12:01 pm

I don't get it.
No me either.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 4:01 pm

OK, now I understand. OP maxes out at 65MB/s while tothefull reaches 95MB/s at same signal strength. Hmm, iwlwifi Linux is some 🎉 driver. I don't trust it to reach full speeds for certain hardware. I had a Killer wifi AC card originally in my Dell 9360 XPS. I exchanged it with a AX200 several years ago.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 5:36 pm

OK, now I understand. OP maxes out at 65MB/s while tothefull reaches 95MB/s at same signal strength. Hmm, iwlwifi Linux is some 🎉 driver. I don't trust it to reach full speeds for certain hardware. I had a Killer wifi AC card originally in my Dell 9360 XPS. I exchanged it with a AX200 several years ago.
Yes I get 90MB/s from all my Mikrotik ax gear, I'm lucky that i have 2 PC's with ax200 cards and external antennas. I wouldn't trust a laptop with internal aerials never mind with some crummy linux driver. Then to come on here and start spouting garbage based on those conditions!
It just makes your teeth ache doesn't it.
 
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Re: cAP ax performance vs cAP ac

Sat Jul 27, 2024 8:27 pm

Well, the Intel wireless driver for Linux is written/maintained by Intel. That's why it is called iwlwifi.
But for the antennas I can agree, the ones in my Dell notebook are not the best. I have decent signal at the client itself, but transmission is obviously not the strongest as the signal reported in wifi registration is like -15dbm worse. so to say a asymmetric connection: good downlink but weak uplink.

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