wAP coverage -- picture included

Josephny · Sun Nov 03, 2024 10:20 pm

I don't seem to get good coverage from this wap.

Everything I've been able to find says it has "360 degree" radiation in a "near spherical" shape.

Anyone see anything wrong?

I wonder if the metal building is killing it.

Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:34 am

As in the name, it's a "wall acces point (wap)", so it is designed to be used against a surface. While the radiation pattern is roughly spherical, the best antenna gain is to the front.

mkx · Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:55 am

As in the name, it's a "wall acces point (wap)",

Ah, so that's the meaning of initial letter in names of "xAP" devices ... so "cAP" means "ceiling AP". @Normins, do you mind explaining meaning of "h" in "hAP"? And are there any "pAP" (pole AP) devices?

Mon Nov 04, 2024 8:56 am

hAP - home AP
wAP - wall AP
cAP - ceiling AP
wsAP - wall socket AP
mAP - mini AP
ltAP - LTE AP

infabo · Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:46 am

Dont forget:

CRS: Cloud router switch

...

mkx · Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:51 am

Dont forget:

CRS: Cloud router switch

...

... which doesn't really belong into xAP family of devices, does it? And generally doesn't provide wireless coverage at all, does it? In case you missed: this thread was about wAP and @Normis tried to explain that wAP (due to being wall AP) doesn't really have spherical radiation pattern. And then I extended question to meaning of acronyms of other AP devices.

flynno · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:00 am

Dont forget:

CRS: Cloud router switch

...
... which doesn't really belong into xAP family of devices, does it? And generally doesn't provide wireless coverage at all, does it? In case you missed: this thread was about wAP and @Normis tried to explain that wAP (due to being wall AP) doesn't really have spherical radiation pattern. And then I extended question to meaning of acronyms of other AP devices.

I would suggest a NetMetal ax with 2x HGO-antenna-OUT

jaclaz · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:48 am

In case you missed: this thread was about wAP and @Normis tried to explain that wAP (due to being wall AP) doesn't really have spherical radiation pattern.

Well, we do have a drawing:
https://fccid.io/TV7WAPGR52AX/Test-Repo ... on-7634095

I think we can define the pattern as "ball with flat bottom"::
https://www.brunnershop.com/en/One-Shot ... ottom.html

infabo · Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:33 pm

Dont forget:

CRS: Cloud router switch

...
... which doesn't really belong into xAP family of devices, does it? And generally doesn't provide wireless coverage at all, does it? In case you missed: this thread was about wAP and @Normis tried to explain that wAP (due to being wall AP) doesn't really have spherical radiation pattern. And then I extended question to meaning of acronyms of other AP devices.

Well, then you did not understand my intention. It is about this: Normis based his answer (quote: "As in the name, it's a "wall acces point (wap)", so it is designed to be used against a surface.") on the product naming.

And all I said is: "CRS stands for Cloud Router Switch". An we all know, at least some devices of that series is more a SWITCH and no ROUTERS. Many times discussed in the forum.

So basically: I would not bet my last shirt on: "product name matches product usage category"

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:36 pm

hAP - home AP
wAP - wall AP
cAP - ceiling AP
wsAP - wall socket AP
mAP - mini AP
ltAP - LTE AP

This is great to know -- thank you.

I think we can define the pattern as "ball with flat bottom"::
https://www.brunnershop.com/en/One-Shot ... ottom.html

I think we can safely describe the pattern as "highly directional" and not "360 degrees." It appears that, when in oriented in the vertical position, it has a usable maximum beamwidth of ~120 degrees (but probably more like 90*).
.

wap-pattern.png

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 12:41 pm

I would suggest a NetMetal ax with 2x HGO-antenna-OUT

OMG!

I had no idea this product existed.

This appears to be exactly what I need.

Ugh, and I just ordered a wAP AX.

Thank you!

jaclaz · Mon Nov 04, 2024 2:09 pm

@infabo
Maybe we should rename to:
CSS->CASS (Cloud Actually Switching Switch)
and
CRS->CARS (Cloud Almost Routing Switch)

@flynno
Maybe stupid question, but aren't the two HGO-antenna-OUT directly mounted too near to each other to do any good?
I know it is even on Mikrotik official pictures:
https://cdn.mikrotik.com/web-assets/rb_ ... hi_res.png
but it looks somehow "wrong"

.

mkx · Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:11 pm

Maybe stupid question, but aren't the two HGO-antenna-OUT directly mounted too near to each other to do any good?

Principle use of NetMetal ax is to attach good antennas to the RP-SMA connectors. The image with antennas attached shows secondary use, from product brochure:

If necessary, you can adapt the NetMetal ax for lower range use with such antennas as our HGO-antenna-OUT screw-on omni antenna unit.

The mentioned antennas are not "tiltable", so they can't be arranged at 90° angle. Which means that yes, layout on the picture is almost useless (my estimate is that it works approximately at 1.1x1.1MIMO). But I'm sure one can get similar, but tiltable, antennas on-line ... and when arranged at +-45° tilt, they allow for proper 2x2MIMO operation.

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 3:15 pm

Principle use of NetMetal ax is to attach good antennas to the RP-SMA connectors. The image with antennas attached shows secondary use, from product brochure:

The mentioned antennas are not "tiltable", so they can't be arranged at 90° angle. Which means that yes, layout on the picture is almost useless (my estimate is that it works approximately at 1.1x1.1MIMO). But I'm sure one can get similar, but tiltable, antennas on-line ... and when arranged at +-45° tilt, they allow for proper 2x2MIMO operation.

Does it come with antennas?

If so, are they for long range (i.e, high gain) and omnidirectional coverage?

Are there different models?

It is always a challenge to identify exactly the correct MT device to purchase.

jaclaz · Mon Nov 04, 2024 5:56 pm

No, the device comes without antennas.

The photo on Mikrotik store is more explicit

The top cover has two passages so you would normally use two external antenna connected with a (short) piece of cable, *like*:

which seems BTW to me like a much better protection against rain/snow/etc. with the straight antennas and without cover, the connectors are essentially exposed, and cannot say how waterproof/sealed are them, they look like normal connectors with a nut.

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 10:46 pm

No, the device comes without antennas.

Got it -- thank you.

When I go to mikrotik.com and click BUY, I get a list of distributors. Is there a MT store?

When I go to the hardware page, and find the Netmetal AX, I see 5 pictures but not what you provided.

It would be nice is there were an easy way to identify and source various options for cables and antennas that are definetly compatible also.

I see the "HGO-antenna-OUT" and the "Flex-guide" cable, but I only suspect (versus know) that these are the associated devices by previous posts. I don't know if there are any alternatives.

anav · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:33 pm

First ---> Decide if you want OMNI antennal (360deg), sector antenna 90/110/120/140 degrees, point to point antenna ( narrow sector)

Second --> Figure out what type of connectors does the device have...............

Third --> Google BEST wifi/wisp antennas 2024, with connectors of type Y, with sector width a degress to b degrees.

jaclaz · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:44 pm

The posted picture comes from:
https://www.mikrotik-store.eu/
https://www.mikrotik-store.eu/de/mikrot ... etmetal-ax

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:47 pm

First ---> Decide if you want OMNI antennal (360deg), sector antenna 90/110/120/140 degrees, point to point antenna ( narrow sector)

Second --> Figure out what type of connectors does the device have...............

Third --> Google BEST wifi/wisp antennas 2024, with connectors of type Y, with sector width a degress to b degrees.

First -- there is no such thing as a "type Y" connector (joking!)

Second -- these units have two antenna ports and I don't believe that just any dual-band (2.4/5ghz; or even tri-band 2.4/5/6ghz) will work because of the dual antenna ports.

See:

https://www.cs.princeton.edu/courses/ar ... ummies.pdf

Josephny · Mon Nov 04, 2024 11:49 pm

The posted picture comes from:
https://www.mikrotik-store.eu/
https://www.mikrotik-store.eu/de/mikrot ... etmetal-ax

Sure, anything East of the Atlantic ocean gets the good stuff, eh?

anav · Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:10 am

Yup, not a wifi techie, so sure you have to ensure compatibility of antenna with available connectors.

Who woulda thunk it.......... an antenna with two connectors.................... I must be clairvoyant..........
https://mikrotik.com/product/mant_lte_5o

The only advantage of europe is that they have more range on their 2ghz stuff, the rest of the freq spectrum, man are they screwed - if a frequency vibrates anal lips, it will be banned in Europe, in the US, that a free massage ( dont ask me what they are just made it up......could be ear lobes

)
However the food and beer is better and cheaper (unless you live in Denmark) and the alcohol, cannot find bad wine etc..........

Josephny · Tue Nov 05, 2024 12:41 am

Yup, not a wifi techie, so sure you have to ensure compatibility of antenna with available connectors.

Who woulda thunk it.......... an antenna with two connectors.................... I must be clairvoyant..........
https://mikrotik.com/product/mant_lte_5o

The only advantage of europe is that they have more range on their 2ghz stuff, the rest of the freq spectrum, man are they screwed - if a frequency vibrates anal lips, it will be banned in Europe, in the US, that a free massage ( dont ask me what they are just made it up......could be ear lobes )
However the food and beer is better and cheaper (unless you live in Denmark) and the alcohol, cannot find bad wine etc..........

The mANT-LTE-5o is designed for LTE frequencies, less than 5dbi gain, and SMA connectors (not RP-SMA).

I would love a dual band, 120 to 180 degree azimuth, 10-15dbi gain, dual RP-SMA antenna. That would be fun to play with.

Last family vacation was in Spain, where the alcohol and food markets are light-years better than the US.

Josephny · Tue Nov 05, 2024 6:09 pm

Does anyone have any specific recommendations for a 120 to 180* antenna compatible with the Netmetal AX?

anav · Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:09 pm

What did your research find............. I would hazard a guess that dual band antennas need four connectors, so the best you can hope for is single band sector antennas.

jaclaz · Tue Nov 05, 2024 11:44 pm

They are not common, but they exist.
Example:
https://www.quwireless.com/product/qusector-7v-120-2
120 degrees, dual connector, mimo 2x2.

anav · Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:21 am

Sweet!

Josephny · Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:47 am

They are not common, but they exist.
Example:
https://www.quwireless.com/product/qusector-7v-120-2
120 degrees, dual connector, mimo 2x2.

Interesting but not particularly compelling.

The HGO-antenna-OUT has 3.3db gain at 2.4ghz and approximately 6db at 5ghz compared to this with just under than 7db. If you would benefit from a 120 directionality, then this is fine.

I’m surprised there aren’t higher gain 120 degree antennas for dual band.

mkx · Wed Nov 06, 2024 11:53 am

There are such antennas, but they don't come cheap, are large and (some of them) look ugly.

Antenna gain is generally proportional to antenna size and antenna size for given gain is generally proportional to wavelength. Which in essence means that at certain gain antenna for 2.4GHz has to be 2-times larger (in both directions, perpendicular to main lobe direction) than antenna with similar gain but for 5GHz. And that, at the same time, means that most wide-band antennas have higher gain (and narrower beam) for higher frequency end and proportionally lower gain (and wider beam) for lower frequency end of supported frequency band. This is specially true for "dish-like" antennas, some other (extremely ugly looking) antennas fare a bit better (e.g. yagi or log-periodic antennas) but those tend to be physically bigger (and have lower WAF).

Josephny · Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:37 pm

There are such antennas, but they don't come cheap, are large and (some of them) look ugly.

Antenna gain is generally proportional to antenna size and antenna size for given gain is generally proportional to wavelength. Which in essence means that at certain gain antenna for 2.4GHz has to be 2-times larger (in both directions, perpendicular to main lobe direction) than antenna with similar gain but for 5GHz. And that, at the same time, means that most wide-band antennas have higher gain (and narrower beam) for higher frequency end and proportionally lower gain (and wider beam) for lower frequency end of supported frequency band. This is specially true for "dish-like" antennas, some other (extremely ugly looking) antennas fare a bit better (e.g. yagi or log-periodic antennas) but those tend to be physically bigger (and have lower WAF).

That is a great explanation.

Luckily, at 2.4 and 5ghz, the sizes are (at least for me, someone who grew up with antennas for the 3-30mhz range) pretty small.

What I don't understand is how the dual RP-SMA ports work? How does the AP (transceiver) look at those ports?

mkx · Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:00 pm

What I don't understand is how the dual RP-SMA ports work? How does the AP (transceiver) look at those ports?

Most probably those dual antenna ports are used for MIMO ... and for each MIMO leg (in WiFi they are called chains) one needs a separate antenna. Some antennas are dual-port (or MIMO) and actually include two antennas in the same housing. For 2x2 MIMO the easiest way to make best use of it is to use two antennas and tilt them at 90° angle ... all antennas are polarized and using them at 90° angle this means two independent polarization planes. Another possibility to make MIMO work is to spatially separate antennas (by a few wavelengths at minimum). When using higer-rank of MIMO (e.g. 4x4), one has to use combination of both approaches (polarization only offers two planes).

Another possibility is that those antenna ports are there for different frequency bands (which then means 1x1 MIMO for each).

Josephny · Wed Nov 06, 2024 2:56 pm

What I don't understand is how the dual RP-SMA ports work? How does the AP (transceiver) look at those ports?

Most probably those dual antenna ports are used for MIMO ... and for each MIMO leg (in WiFi they are called chains) one needs a separate antenna. Some antennas are dual-port (or MIMO) and actually include two antennas in the same housing. For 2x2 MIMO the easiest way to make best use of it is to use two antennas and tilt them at 90° angle ... all antennas are polarized and using them at 90° angle this means two independent polarization planes. Another possibility to make MIMO work is to spatially separate antennas (by a few wavelengths at minimum). When using higer-rank of MIMO (e.g. 4x4), one has to use combination of both approaches (polarization only offers two planes).

Another possibility is that those antenna ports are there for different frequency bands (which then means 1x1 MIMO for each).

Another great explanation.

Anyone here from MT that can clarify if the two ports are MIMO or bands?

And, if MIMO, is the design such that only certain, end-fed dipole antennas (i.e., verticals; but in either horizontal or vertical polarization) would work?

mkx · Wed Nov 06, 2024 3:05 pm

MIMO radios don't imply antenna layout. It's about making MIMO legs, transmitted over RF, distinguishable between each other as good as possible. Separate antenna ports ensure that ideally, the rest is up to antennas (and environment).

sirbryan · Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:07 pm

I would love a dual band, 120 to 180 degree azimuth, 10-15dbi gain, dual RP-SMA antenna. That would be fun to play with.

They exist, but I think there isn't enough demand for them to keep making them (people want more gain, not to be hampered by dual-band designs).

This is one I found at one of my distributors. Based on the "802.11n" description, they've been around for decades but haven't been updated and aren't in stock anywhere.

Screenshot 2024-11-06 at 8.04.45 AM.png

Here's one that Ubiquiti makes:

https://store.ui.com/us/en/collections/ ... ucts/uma-d

Here's an example of what Streakwave has:

https://streakwave.com/search?q=dual-ba ... wmode=list

Wed Nov 06, 2024 5:57 pm

maybe an option like mANTBox ax 15s can be considered, i know is not so cheap as the wAP but can be very useful

https://mikrotik.com/product/mantbox_ax_15s

jaclaz · Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:14 am

maybe an option like mANTBox ax 15s can be considered, i know is not so cheap as the wAP but can be very useful

https://mikrotik.com/product/mantbox_ax_15s

Yep, but I think OP is already beyond the WAP, a Netmetal Ax (+antenna(s)) is going to cost much more.

What is not clear (to me) is how wide the area to be covered is, the Mantbox ax 15 s is still pretty much directional, 120° or so, so maybe two will be needed to cover a wider area.

Having to choose personally I would prefer a "all in one" device such as the Mantbox as in the long period the cable connections from AP to antenna are more likely to oxidize/loose insulation/whatever.

flynno · Thu Nov 07, 2024 11:39 am

maybe an option like mANTBox ax 15s can be considered, i know is not so cheap as the wAP but can be very useful

https://mikrotik.com/product/mantbox_ax_15s
Yep, but I think OP is already beyond the WAP, a Netmetal Ax (+antenna(s)) is going to cost much more.

What is not clear (to me) is how wide the area to be covered is, the Mantbox ax 15 s is still pretty much directional, 120° or so, so maybe two will be needed to cover a wider area.

Having to choose personally I would prefer a "all in one" device such as the Mantbox as in the long period the cable connections from AP to antenna are more likely to oxidize/loose insulation/whatever.

You can put amalgamating tape around the connectors, this will help with water

Josephny · Thu Nov 07, 2024 3:35 pm

maybe an option like mANTBox ax 15s can be considered, i know is not so cheap as the wAP but can be very useful

https://mikrotik.com/product/mantbox_ax_15s
Yep, but I think OP is already beyond the WAP, a Netmetal Ax (+antenna(s)) is going to cost much more.

What is not clear (to me) is how wide the area to be covered is, the Mantbox ax 15 s is still pretty much directional, 120° or so, so maybe two will be needed to cover a wider area.

Having to choose personally I would prefer a "all in one" device such as the Mantbox as in the long period the cable connections from AP to antenna are more likely to oxidize/loose insulation/whatever.

The Mantbox looks very interesting.

How can I understanding the differences between the mANTBox ax 15s and the NetMetal AX?

carl0s · Fri Nov 08, 2024 11:35 pm

Ah, always assumed it was just wireless access point. and cAP, yeah, I suppose I thought either ceiling or controlled.

infabo · Fri Nov 15, 2024 1:26 am

hAP - home AP
wAP - wall AP
cAP - ceiling AP
wsAP - wall socket AP
mAP - mini AP
ltAP - LTE AP

https://youtu.be/n1Zfq_SDTrY?t=90&si=HsXnvttvyH9-dRIx

Viktors says wAP stands for "wireless access point".

Josephny · Fri Nov 15, 2024 2:55 am

hAP - home AP
wAP - wall AP
cAP - ceiling AP
wsAP - wall socket AP
mAP - mini AP
ltAP - LTE AP
https://youtu.be/n1Zfq_SDTrY?t=90&si=HsXnvttvyH9-dRIx

Viktors says wAP stands for "wireless access point".

Great video -- I didn't know they make regular video newsletters.

So many tools to play with it!

jaclaz · Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:05 am

Viktors says wAP stands for "wireless access point".

I think that that is only to distinguish it from wired access points

mkx · Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:21 pm

Viktors says wAP stands for "wireless access point".
I think that that is only to distinguish it from wired access points

I don't know about you, but I have my Audience wired ... both for PoE and for backhaul. And it only works as AP (no routing or anything else). Which it means Audience is a wired AP

alexbasheer · Tue Nov 26, 2024 8:55 am

maybe an option like mANTBox ax 15s can be considered, i know is not so cheap as the wAP but can be very useful

https://mikrotik.com/product/mantbox_ax_15s

i have a mantbox, am currently using it as a test indoors, but the signal strenght is'nt good at all what could be the issue.
My main focus is to provide out door coverage with the mantbox

mkx · Tue Nov 26, 2024 9:03 am

mANTbox has a pretty narrow-beam antenna. Have a look at diagrams, published in product's quick guide. Since Tx power is generally limited by country regulations, this means that decent signal strength is only available in directions with maximum antenna gain and elsewhere signal strength is pretty low.

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