is it me, or is it the wAP ax?

AndrewBienhaus · Sat May 31, 2025 7:41 pm

Good day all,
Posting in the Beginner section - but feel free to move the post, if it should be.
I'm no "beginner", but my CCNA was a long time ago, and while I'm quite technical, I admit that all my Mikrotik stuff usually just "works out of the box" for me... so either it's me, or the wAPax is a nightmare, has issues - OR - needs serious tweaking from the factory - that I have NOT found instructions for yet.

I've deployed 100+ Mikrotik devices... lots of cAPac, wAPac, and always to great delight and success. (for me, and my customers)
I've even used CAPSMAN a few times in larger setups, but that's not what today's challenge is about. (I know capsman has issues with wAPax)

I admit, that while I can work a CLI if I have to, I really do prefer the WinBox... it's just SOOOOO pleasant to see blanks, configure a minimalist approach, and walk away. (that's what I mean by "works out of the box" above)

Bear with me... as I spell out today's challenging setup at a site, after some "recurring strangeness" since I started adding wAPax units to the mix, in a NUMBER of locations. Usually, there are a lot of variables, neighbours, excuses for interference, blah blah blah.
Not so much this time - so that's why my post. THIS SHOULD JUST WORK, and work awesomely.

Rural Canadian setup, as in, so rural that Starlink is the source internet.
When doing a full scan from the highest point/device on a tower, I can see a few Bell devices from neighbouring properties, that are obviously using cellular Bell Canada conversion systems. But, we are talking about a very quiet area.... no radar, no strangeness, maybe 3 of these Bell systems showing on the scan list.

All devices updated and running 7.19.1

Two houses, plus some outbuildings.
All sharing internet mounted on building 1.
75m apart, the two main buildings. (forgive me US friends, multiply by 3 to get feet)
Wired Gb ethernet (via the mid-position-cabin) between them.

Building 1 - modern wood construction, wood siding exterior.
Served internal wifi by an hAPac. Works well, always has.
Garage has metal cladding, so added a cAPac on wired ethernet, to enhance access in there. No issues.
Recently added two wAPax units, to upper rear, and front deck, hoping to expand coverage beyond building - "from the road to the waterfront", sort of idea. (figuring that anything exterior wAP from Mikrotik should KILL this coverage. (it always has - like we are talking open line of sight!!)
Yet... not exactly stunning results...

Small cabin between building 1 & 2, wood construction & exterior.
Served internal wifi by a cAPac, that also acts as the mid-way relay point for ethernet between building 1 & 2.
wifi also nicely spreads out beyond, to surrounding outdoors around it, lightly wooded areas. Working signal still, 20m away.

Building 2 - older wood construction, metal siding and roofing. (yeah, I know, it's a Faraday cage)
It is served wifi by a cAPac, works well inside, but as you can imagine is "spotty" outside the building.

Yesterday, I added a wAPax that I had set aside, to this second building.
I mounted it up, on the old standard 3-C-channel TV tower that has been on the building forever, figuring that the height (10m up) would give me EXTENSIVE coverage, of everything outside this metal clad building, and in particular, a 2.4Ghz connection for the new Tesla wall charger, 22m away, open sight... through AT WORST a few leafy branches. (I can still SEE the wAPax from the charger)

This should be all - no-brainer solutions.
Yet, the wall charger barely stays connected... and as I walked around today using the ol' "wifi sweet spots" app on the iPhone, not only was the signal speed/strength all over the map, but I realized afterwards, that it wasn't even connecting to the 5Ghz, but was clinging to the crappy 2.4Ghz radio on the wAPax, the whole time.

Like, literally - an elevated position, 5m (15ft) above the roof line, where I can see it through the trees, and speed is dropping to 2Mbps, and such crap.

So - what am I doing wrong?

My configs are, and have always been dead simple.
I power units up from factory, login from lan side on WinBox.
Change SSIDs (both same for all), set to Canada, set to WPA2PSK and set the key.
Disable DHCP server, and set both Ether ports to bridge. (no WAN, no routing needed)

Yet, they suck.
Have done lots of wAPac units too, and they "just work", much like the cAPac.

What am I missing?
(happy to share configs, files, tell me what you want to see!)

Also open to any replies that say "you're an idiot, you need to turn on X"...

thanks!
Andrew

erlinden · Sat May 31, 2025 8:00 pm

You are aware of the radiation pattern of the wAP AX? Sure you are using the correct device in this situation? Mounted correctly?
What is the signal and how did you set it up (yep, indeed we want to see the config)?

AndrewBienhaus · Sat May 31, 2025 8:12 pm

Thanks,
I have sought out radiation patterns of the Mikrotik devices in the past, and been told they are "generally spherical".
I did try and seek out the wAPax this morning, to no avail. (mikrotik site, manuals, etc)
If it's out there, love to see it.
Mounted vertically, using supplied rear plate, tied to vertical channel of TV tower. (3 pole steel tower)

Config here - like I posted, only minor adjustments "as needed" from what the factory sent.
That's where I wonder if the wAPax isn't as friendly as all the past cAP/wAP AC units I have implemented.

Thank you for the quick reply!

# 2025-05-31 13:07:06 by RouterOS 7.19.1
# software id = 3YWZ-I0AK
#
# model = wAPG-5HaxD2HaxD
# serial number = HH80A2E5C34
/interface bridge
add admin-mac=F4:1E:57:69:AC:E7 auto-mac=no comment=defconf name=bridge
/interface wifi
set [ find default-name=wifi1 ] channel.band=2ghz-ax .skip-dfs-channels=\
    10min-cac .width=20/40mhz configuration.country=Canada .mode=ap .ssid=\
    Rivendell disabled=no security.authentication-types=wpa2-psk .ft=yes \
    .ft-over-ds=yes
set [ find default-name=wifi2 ] channel.band=5ghz-ax .skip-dfs-channels=\
    10min-cac .width=20/40/80mhz configuration.country=Canada .mode=ap .ssid=\
    Rivendell disabled=no security.authentication-types=wpa2-psk .ft=yes \
    .ft-over-ds=yes
/interface list
add comment=defconf name=WAN
add comment=defconf name=LAN
/ip pool
add name=default-dhcp ranges=192.168.88.10-192.168.88.254
/interface bridge port
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=ether2
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wifi1
add bridge=bridge comment=defconf interface=wifi2
add bridge=bridge interface=ether1
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=LAN
/interface list member
add comment=defconf interface=bridge list=LAN
add comment=defconf disabled=yes interface=ether1 list=WAN
/interface ovpn-server server
add mac-address=FE:11:42:D4:18:9C name=ovpn-server1
/ip dhcp-client
# DHCP client can not run on slave or passthrough interface!
add comment=defconf interface=ether1
/ip dns
set allow-remote-requests=yes
/ip dns static
add address=192.168.88.1 comment=defconf name=router.lan type=A
/ip firewall filter
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: accept established,related,untracked" connection-state=\
    established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop invalid" connection-state=\
    invalid
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ICMP" protocol=icmp
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: accept to local loopback (for CAPsMAN)" dst-address=127.0.0.1
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop all not coming from LAN" \
    in-interface-list=!LAN
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept in ipsec policy" \
    ipsec-policy=in,ipsec
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept out ipsec policy" \
    ipsec-policy=out,ipsec
add action=fasttrack-connection chain=forward comment="defconf: fasttrack" \
    connection-state=established,related hw-offload=yes
add action=accept chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: accept established,related, untracked" connection-state=\
    established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=forward comment="defconf: drop invalid" \
    connection-state=invalid
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: drop all from WAN not DSTNATed" connection-nat-state=!dstnat \
    connection-state=new in-interface-list=WAN
/ip firewall nat
add action=masquerade chain=srcnat comment="defconf: masquerade" \
    ipsec-policy=out,none out-interface-list=WAN
/ip ipsec profile
set [ find default=yes ] dpd-interval=2m dpd-maximum-failures=5
/ipv6 firewall address-list
add address=::/128 comment="defconf: unspecified address" list=bad_ipv6
add address=::1/128 comment="defconf: lo" list=bad_ipv6
add address=fec0::/10 comment="defconf: site-local" list=bad_ipv6
add address=::ffff:0.0.0.0/96 comment="defconf: ipv4-mapped" list=bad_ipv6
add address=::/96 comment="defconf: ipv4 compat" list=bad_ipv6
add address=100::/64 comment="defconf: discard only " list=bad_ipv6
add address=2001:db8::/32 comment="defconf: documentation" list=bad_ipv6
add address=2001:10::/28 comment="defconf: ORCHID" list=bad_ipv6
add address=3ffe::/16 comment="defconf: 6bone" list=bad_ipv6
/ipv6 firewall filter
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: accept established,related,untracked" connection-state=\
    established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=input comment="defconf: drop invalid" connection-state=\
    invalid
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ICMPv6" protocol=\
    icmpv6
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept UDP traceroute" \
    dst-port=33434-33534 protocol=udp
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: accept DHCPv6-Client prefix delegation." dst-port=546 protocol=\
    udp src-address=fe80::/10
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept IKE" dst-port=500,4500 \
    protocol=udp
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ipsec AH" protocol=\
    ipsec-ah
add action=accept chain=input comment="defconf: accept ipsec ESP" protocol=\
    ipsec-esp
add action=accept chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: accept all that matches ipsec policy" ipsec-policy=in,ipsec
add action=drop chain=input comment=\
    "defconf: drop everything else not coming from LAN" in-interface-list=\
    !LAN
add action=accept chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: accept established,related,untracked" connection-state=\
    established,related,untracked
add action=drop chain=forward comment="defconf: drop invalid" \
    connection-state=invalid
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: drop packets with bad src ipv6" src-address-list=bad_ipv6
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: drop packets with bad dst ipv6" dst-address-list=bad_ipv6
add action=drop chain=forward comment="defconf: rfc4890 drop hop-limit=1" \
    hop-limit=equal:1 protocol=icmpv6
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept ICMPv6" protocol=\
    icmpv6
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept HIP" protocol=139
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept IKE" dst-port=\
    500,4500 protocol=udp
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept ipsec AH" protocol=\
    ipsec-ah
add action=accept chain=forward comment="defconf: accept ipsec ESP" protocol=\
    ipsec-esp
add action=accept chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: accept all that matches ipsec policy" ipsec-policy=in,ipsec
add action=drop chain=forward comment=\
    "defconf: drop everything else not coming from LAN" in-interface-list=\
    !LAN
/system clock
set time-zone-name=America/Toronto
/system identity
set name=95-wAPax-tower
/tool mac-server
set allowed-interface-list=LAN
/tool mac-server mac-winbox
set allowed-interface-list=LAN

jaclaz · Sat May 31, 2025 8:37 pm

Also open to any replies that say "you're an idiot, you need to turn on X"...

I am pretty sure that you can have that, too, and for free!

The WapAx is an exception, it is rather directional, the W stays for Wall, so in the back there is little radiation, the most is projected forward in an angle that is in the 90-120° range, possibly a bit less.

See:
viewtopic.php?t=212255
viewtopic.php?t=212255#p1107142

About 5Ghz, you seemingly let the Mikrotik to use whatever channel it sees fit:

/interface wifi
set [ find default-name=wifi1 ] channel.band=2ghz-ax .skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac .width=20/40mhz configuration.country=Canada .mode=ap .ssid=Rivendell disabled=no security.authentication-types=wpa2-psk .ft=yes .ft-over-ds=yes
set [ find default-name=wifi2 ] channel.band=5ghz-ax .skip-dfs-channels=10min-cac .width=20/40/80mhz configuration.country=Canada .mode=ap .ssid=Rivendell disabled=no security.authentication-types=wpa2-psk .ft=yes .ft-over-ds=yes

and there are a few channels on the high end of the 5 GHz band that usually Mikrotik "prefers" but that common devices (possibly also your charger) simply cannot reach/connect to.

AndrewBienhaus · Sat May 31, 2025 9:29 pm

...so the W isn't for WeatherProof.
Wellllllllllllll poop.
When I got sold the first wAPac, that's what I was told... guess I should have fact checked.

90-120 degrees.
And they don't include PoE out on the wAP units, so it's not like I can put another next to it.
ok, thanks.
I read the posting, but am going to go back and take another look at the 3D nature (ie: below) of the "flat ball sphere", and take another look at alternatives.

As for the higher frequencies on 5Ghz, any posted range to stick to, in your experience?

Thank you,
Andrew

mkx · Sat May 31, 2025 10:54 pm

As for the higher frequencies on 5Ghz, any posted range to stick to, in your experience?

Stick to U-NII-1 and U-NII-2 ... so up to and including channel 136 for 20MHz channels, 132 for 40MHz channels and 116 for 80MHz channels (that's center frequencies 5680, 5660 and 5580 MHz respectively). Lower boundary is channel 36 (5180 MHz) for all channel widths. Thi frequency range also contains some DFS ranges which may work just fine or may fail completely for any particular installation.

Newer MT devices by default like to use U-NII-3 band which is not supported by many wifi clients and additionally comes with seriously low Tx power limits in many regulatory domains.

AndrewBienhaus · Sat May 31, 2025 11:29 pm

I still find it odd, that folks are saying W stands for wall, and not weatherproof.

https://mikrotik.com/product/wap_ax

wAP ax brings fast and reliable Wi-Fi 6 to your countryside getaway or any other challenging environments – like a rural gas station or a bus stop. wAP’s legendary weatherproof form-factor has been tested for several generations all across the globe, and remains a favorite among MikroTik users for its simplicity and durability.

infabo · Sat May 31, 2025 11:40 pm

I still find it odd, that folks are saying W stands for wall, and not weatherproof.

viewtopic.php?p=1107097&hilit=wall#p1107097

jaclaz · Sat May 31, 2025 11:55 pm

I still find it odd, ...

You probably mean weird

.

AndrewBienhaus · Sun Jun 01, 2025 12:10 am

yeah, probably.
I'm sending my rep a note on the topic.

I read that topic too, saw all the WALL references.
Yet, their marketing materials for either wAP unit, don't mention wall... they're all about WeatherProof...

robmaltsystems · Sun Jun 01, 2025 4:46 pm

yeah, probably.
I'm sending my rep a note on the topic.

I read that topic too, saw all the WALL references.
Yet, their marketing materials for either wAP unit, don't mention wall... they're all about WeatherProof...

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Miktotik's product page says "The cAP ac is a very capable and powerful wireless access point that looks beautiful on both walls and ceilings"...

jaclaz · Sun Jun 01, 2025 5:29 pm

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Miktotik's product page says "The cAP ac is a very capable and powerful wireless access point that looks beautiful on both walls and ceilings"...

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but looking beautiful doesn't mean it works properly in whatever orientation ...

For the cAP (c is for ceiling) I couldn't find a diagram of the emissions, common sense tells me that it should be a more or less fat toroid (doughnut) that is horizontal when the device is hung to the ceiling (as otherwise, if it was omnidirectional[1] or projected forward you would have better wi-fi at the floor over or below your apartment).
Which should mean that the cAP sucks if hung on a wall.

By the same reasoning, if you hang a wAP (w is for wall) to the ceiling, the apartment below your should have better signal than you do outside a narrow radius, still one of the mounting bracket for the wAP is called "wAP ceiling mount bracket " ....

Maybe when inside it doesn't really matter as reflections make both devices omnidirectional in practice.

The wAP may be actually designed for the publicized environments (very common, everybody has one or more of those

) :

countryside getaway ... , rural gas station or a bus stop

I was thinking of buying a bus stop to test a wAP in its natural environment (as rural gas stations are quite pricey here

) but wife said no way

.

[1] but it clearly has some sort of reflectors inside that prevent signal to go through the ceiling

AndrewBienhaus · Sun Jun 01, 2025 7:48 pm

FWIW... where I have it up a tower right now, below it and in front of it, does work very well. "5 bars"...
so, the "facing direction", anecdotally at least, does work below. (I can't fly - so I can't test up - yet)

If I want to mount on the tower, something more truly "spherical" and omnidirectional, and still use Mikrotik... any personal recommendations?
The other posts seem to point to the Metalsomething AX, which can have external antennae, or not. (it would appear)
But local supply says "back-order", so maybe it's too new?

jaclaz · Sun Jun 01, 2025 8:38 pm

That's where a certain number of helium filled balloons may come handy...

Naah, the Netmetal Ax is not very new, maybe it is just out of stock.

But you would need an external 2x2 omnidirectional antenna, which may actually be more difficult to procure, or a couple of simple external ones.

The alternative would be a Groove, but there is no Ax version of it, only Ac.

AndrewBienhaus · Mon Jun 02, 2025 9:30 pm

Yeah... so far the supplier is recommending a pair of mANTBox units, facing opposite ways.
But at the price, I could just as easily add a second wAPax too... methinks...?

(and cheaper!)

Asking Mikrotik what they think...

lurker888 · Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:28 pm

I don't think that you got the best advice from your retailer. (It happens even with the best of intentions.) Placing two devices back-to-back is *severely* not recommended. This is because while there is significantly less power radiated backwards, it is still overwhelming when one of the devices is transmitting, but the other would be receiving. (This is true even if they are on different channels, because a large part of the amplification stages amplifies the entire band, not just the frequency it is using.)

Cellular (GSM/LTE/5G) people get away with such things because their radios are synchronized to one another - either they are in the same device/chassis or they use a precision GPS clock.

Also, one-antenna solutions should not be considered, because there are significant standing wave patterns due to reflections, so at least two antennas are needed for the coverage not to fluctuate every 5-10 centimeters.

The go-to solution in my neck of the woods used to be (quite some time ago) the OmniTik. This would be the device of choice for you - unfortunately it doesn't come in ax. (Yet? Who knows.)

Probably the current best solution would be the NetMetal AX + two of Mikrotik's "HGO-antenna-OUT" antennas. Many people (including myself) are a bit skeptical of how well this would hold up outdoors, but Mikrotik even has an image of this setup in the product pages. (I have absolutely no personal experience with this.) Anyway, if you are willing to pay for a NetMetal AX, some self-vulcanizing tape can certainly be squeezed into the budget.

I'm sure the NetMetal is not exactly unobtainium.

AndrewBienhaus · Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:33 pm

...and I already own self-vulcanizing tape.

I put in a support request to Mikrotik - will see if their people concur. To me, what you suggest, "feels right".
And with the suggested short cords, I could mount them apart a distance too?

Do you recommend (I don't want to assume) - mounting the two antennae as far from each other as is possible?

lurker888 · Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:47 pm

My surprise was more about their image showing the device "uncapped", with the antennas attached directly. If you can easily obtain pigtails/mounts, I would definitely go for that - it would just feel bad leaving the top of a well constructed device exposed.

As to antenna placement: the standing waves I'm referring to have nodes at lambda/2 intervals, so roughly 12.5 and 6 cm (at 2.4 and 5 GHz). So you would want your antennas to be at an odd multiple of 3cm apart, so 3, 9, 15, etc. cm. And the problems mostly come from reflections, which are even more screwed up, so basically unless you're placing them on a PCB in a small unit (and in that specific case it matters a lot!), as long as there's 20-30 cm separation, placement really doesn't matter much, and any effort to place them further will be in vain. (Unless of course you have some sort of obstruction, in which case the larger part of the area to be covered can be in line of sight of *either* antenna, the better.)

AndrewBienhaus · Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:53 pm

Thanks.
I spent some time today at the FCC website, trying to see those same radio patterns (above) for the NetMetal, and Box thing, but could NOT find the same diagram. Has anyone seen one for the NetMetal?

Would love to know what it's horizontal coverage, and vertical coverage - look like.
It would tell me how high to ideally mount it up the tower, and still achieve "below coverage", as well as the distance I am looking for.

Worst case - i go with the height, that is the same elevation as the highest point at the furthest distance...

Agree on the pigtails - I would do the same.
And then just use a non-reflective material mount, to do the distance idea you mentioned. (solid plastic or PVC)

jaclaz · Mon Jun 02, 2025 10:57 pm

The two antennas separated Is good ( the suggested two hgo-out are nonsense, too near each other to work correctly and they cannot be inclined) but not too far apart, the ideal distance is some multiple of the wavelength usually 3x of the 2.4GHz i.e. around 37 cm that Is roughly 6x the 5GHz wavelength, 4x or 50 cm can also be good, I wouldn't set them much more apart than that

AndrewBienhaus · Mon Jun 02, 2025 11:06 pm

To be clear - your use of the word "nonsense" - you mean just strapping two HGO on the top of the unit, is dumb - as in HGO are ok, just spread them out and mount correctly - yes?

lurker888 · Mon Jun 02, 2025 11:26 pm

You won't find diagrams for the NetMetal, the radiation pattern is a characteristic of the antenna (or antenna system.) The NetMetal's responsibility ends at the coaxial connector.

Mikrotik only sells the most basic antennas. They are no better or worse than other generic types. I'd look around in the catalogue of an a company who specializes in antennas. You will find all the diagrams you want

Here we usually look at Alfa, but what companies actually have distributors varies widely by region, so look for something that has a good local reseller.

I'd probably go for an omni antenna with a medium gain of around the 9 dBi mark. (Or maybe 7.5?) I wouldn't worry too much about the directly-under coverage. Those devices are necessarily near the antenna anyway and that should compensate for the limited gain in their direction. @jaclaz's suggestion about tilting the antennas somewhat is spot-on. As to the distance, yes 50cm (20-30cm on either side of a pole) would be a good position.

jaclaz · Mon Jun 02, 2025 11:34 pm

Yep.
If you get similar antennas but with a joint, you could mount them directly and orient them at 45 degrees diverging, set aside the weatherproofing issues they may work.
The hgo-out are "normal" antennas, I don't think they are better or worse than other similar ones, if set apart enough will work just fine.
The typical radiation pattern of these kind of antennas Is a toroid (a doughnut) that Is fatter for lower gain antennas and thinner for higher gain ones.
See:
viewtopic.php?t=209469

AndrewBienhaus · Mon Jun 02, 2025 11:37 pm

Ok, awesome.
Appreciate all the thoughts/experience.
I will likly be building a mount from UV rated PVC, so I can drill the holes for the antennae bottoms, at whatever angle we all decide is best, and then just run cable up, attach, seal, pull back into PVC hole, and it will be there forever. (50cm apart)

Love that metric use, by the way... tired of converting for online NA posts....

lurker888 · Mon Jun 02, 2025 11:58 pm

For the medium gain antennas I mentioned, the usual tilt is around 22.5 deg (from vertical) and away from each other - assuming level ground in the area to be covered.

EDIT: Again, these antennas I'm on about go for around EUR 15-20 each, so I'd definitely go for something a bit more antenna-like if you1re going to this much trouble already.

AndrewBienhaus · Tue Jun 03, 2025 12:06 am

Yes, Mikrotik HGO Ant are $12 here. *($9 EU?)
But if I go, I will explore ant opttions first, before just grabbing a pair of HGO.

mkx · Tue Jun 03, 2025 2:45 pm

Cellular (GSM/LTE/5G) people get away with such things because their radios are synchronized to one another - either they are in the same device/chassis or they use a precision GPS clock.

And up until 5G (even in LTE) these systems used FDD - Frequency Division Duplex ... with duplex gab large enough for any kind of hardware band-pass filters to be effective enough.

Yes, operating TDD networks (typically higher frequency bands for LTE and 5G) does involve time sync (can be PtP as well, no need for GPS) and fixed ratio between Tx and Rx air time ... the later can be a bummer since some base stations can have pretty different traffic ratio than the rest and this fixed ratio in such case does limit base station capacity.

AndrewBienhaus · Wed Jun 04, 2025 5:04 pm

Ok, so I think I'm going to give it a go with the NetMetal AX, and a pair of those HGO antennas, and will make my own mount.
Appreciate the 22.5 degree angle advice, and the 50cm separation.

Since I am making the mount myself, 22.5 degres is easy to drill/create.

On the 50cm distance - is that best measured at the bottom of the antenna where it passes through the mount tube? (I might as well be precise, since I can cut that to any length)

Promise to report back on success/failure!

It looks like Mikrotik also makes a fancier antenna:
Omni-2.4-5-680419113 ?
(desc: 2.4GHz/5GHz AP/Backbone/CPE, N-male connector, includes 2.4GHz/5GHz 6dBi Omni Antenna)

jaclaz · Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:22 pm

On the 50cm distance - is that best measured at the bottom of the antenna where it passes through the mount tube? (I might as well be precise, since I can cut that to any length)

No

, the 50 cm need to be measured exactly (+/- 0.1 mm) on the center of radio gravity of each HGO antenna.

Just joking

, anything between 38 and 50 cm at the base (in roughly 3 cm steps) will do nicely, so 38/41/44/47/50 will all do, it is not exact science.

The real problem is the 45° angle (2x22.5°), it is not that easy to obtain on a pipe, you will need a couple of specially crafted washers for each antenna.
Typically you can make them by drilling a very thick pipe at the right angle (22.5°) with a cup drill bit/hole saw the same size of the main tube or use a half round file and a lot of patience.
It would probably be simpler to use two 67.5° curves and two plugs at the end of the main pipe.

Those antennas are, if I am not mistaken, the ones that go with the Groove.
Be careful with the pigtail/cable you choose, those are N connector, the Netmetal has SMA ones.

lurker888 · Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:26 pm

I'm always a supporter of "projects" - nice to hear you're going forward with it.

Regarding the 50cm separation: it doesn't actually matter. In fact with inclined antennas it would be expected to ask where exactly it should be measured. In this instance the exact and thorough answer is: who cares, doesn't make a difference.

At the risk of being tiresome (which I absolutely am in real life), consider using a proper antenna. I would suggest ones rated at 9/12 (2.4/%GHz) dBi; most have an "N" type connector.

AndrewBienhaus · Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:39 pm

Re-Angle...
Not to worry, have drill press with angular adjustable table and vice on it... 22.5, here we come.
Plan to make pass-through holes at the angle, and then simply adhere them in place with UV stable silicone/eurethane.

Locating parts now... the NetMetal AX, for some reason... suppliers in Toronto are telling me is "not desireable" in canada, and so they don't stock it.
Yet, I sense that he's game to see how I make it work.

jaclaz · Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:53 pm

Plan to make pass-through holes at the angle, and then simply adhere them in place with UV stable silicone/eurethane.

Well, you still IMHO need something co-planar to tighten correctly the nuts of the pigtails, so maybe you can get away with pouring something that hardens enough (fiberglass, fiber reinforced epoxy or similar).

AndrewBienhaus · Wed Jun 04, 2025 6:57 pm

Agreed.
Will wait until the parts are in my hands, and then work that out.
thanks to all!

AndrewBienhaus · Tue Jun 10, 2025 10:47 pm

So..... NetMetal AX is here.
BIG yellow sticker over the ethernet port, saying "do not power on without antenna connected".... is that true?
I have seen this before, in the past, on unrelated devices, but I thought that without antennae, this unit still has a functional pattern, ie: safe to power on....?

Or, doth the sticker speak the truth?

lurker888 · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:01 pm

What the sticker sayeth is the truth. The device is designed to be terminated into a load of 50 ohms (50R) at the antenna connectors. If the emitted RF power of the transmitter is not absorbed external to the device, the power is reflected back, which causes excess dissipation (EE speak for fries) the TX amplifier. The resulting standing wave patterns may also load the LNA (low noise amplifier, on the RX side) beyond its design limits (again, fry)

Antennas of course are coupled to the free space at . I know, shocking... - an impedance of 50 ohms.

Without antennas the proper way to test these things is with a 50 ohm (yea, that word again) dummy load. Sold separately

In may experience WiFi kit is fairly rugged, however whatever damage occurs may not be easy to detect - rarely do these components fail totally, but what you will experience would be loss of TX power, loss of RX sensitivity, increased RX nonlinearity and noise (SNR+D).

I would not turn the device on without a termination or an antenna attached to all RF outputs. Sorry, could have mentioned this earlier in the thread, but in my mind this is something "everyone already knows." Assumptions always come to bite you

just a little EDIT: If you decide to purchase termination, they are usually rated for power (Watts) - any of them will do. The ones you usually see sold in Western countries are mainly for measurement use, so they are exact to at least 0.1%, and priced accordingly. For this application of course this is unnecessary, so turn to whatever the local equivalent of aliexpress/banggood is. I haven't purchased from them directly, but have seen them many with all of the usual wifi connectors.

anav · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:02 pm

Anything outdoor over any distance why not https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire
or the superior https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire_cube_pro
I'd only use the wapax for local coverage (not ptp stuff)

AndrewBienhaus · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:17 pm

kk, thanks.
Package arrived with NetMetal AX, but they send the wrong cables for the HGO-OUT antennas....

it was a case of a last minute swap, as they advised me that the flex-guide cable wouldn't go between the antenna and the unit.
So threy sent someting else... male to male... which of course doesn't connect at either end.

The top of the NetMetal - has std brass outer threads, plus male pin in the middle - as in, HGO-OUT will screw on.
HGO-OUT has female centre, wit outer threads collar.

Flex-Guide, in photos I could find, and still find, LOOKS like female-female - so they were right that it would not have worked either...?
https://www.batna24.com/en/p/mikrotik-f ... tail-ohtnj

attached is a picture of what I am facing...

jaclaz · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:32 pm

A basic accessory whenever doing connections Is to have a set of suitable adapters/converters:
https://store.rokland.com/en-de/blogs/n ... sma-vs-sma
and rest assured that this kind of mess Is created by electrical engineers (and their committees) exactly to make consumers go crazy.
There is no other possible explanation, if not this xkcd:
https://xkcd.com/927/

lurker888 · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:39 pm

Basically, yes. Mostly. The most I can help you out with, is that the connector you describe is called RP-SMA (reverse-pin SMA) This, understandably leads to all sort of confusion.

Just to disappoint @jaclaz: this particular hell was not unleased by EEs, actually it was the FCC. They came out with a fairly misguided mandate that "if the antenna is detachable, the manufacturer should ensure that no antenna that would violate the EIRP limits can be attached by the end user". And that's the story of how RP-SMA became widespread.

EDIT: Just looked at your photos. The connector on the NetMetal is RP-SMA, the connector on your pigtail is SMA.

To be honest, I would have expected the NetMetal to have straight SMA, for professional equipment it's much more common.

AndrewBienhaus · Tue Jun 10, 2025 11:41 pm

...and I think there is a Family Guy song about the FCC...

https://youtu.be/MfHnX94JDrA?si=xSWCmfQ151RzgnET

jaclaz · Wed Jun 11, 2025 12:16 am

And what do you call [1] the people working at FCC managing the technical part of the norms, attending technical committees and similar, if not electrical engineers?

[1] not what you actually like to call them or what you would like to call them

, their official title or what they usually answer when you ask them what Is their job.

lurker888 · Wed Jun 11, 2025 12:29 am

I'm not defending EEs, nor do I feel the need to. The guys sitting in these regulatory committees are lawyers. I kid you not.

The whole RP-SMA mess illustrates this exactly. Everyone knew that this was just a legal feel-good move. Quite probably more connectors are made for the wifi market than most any other use (the ones used for wifi stuff are the "good enough" kind, proper connectors used for RF work would significantly increase the cost of *everything* wifi that uses them.) To think that if they mandate an "unusual" connector, it would not rapidly become the usual one is ludacris.

Another nice one, although this comes from the ITU, is that we have a vast amount of spectrum literally (I kid you not) reserved with a lookout to flying cars. All the while the spectrum that everyone uses in their everyday life, for things like cell phones and wifi is in bands that basically no one wanted, or some small parts that were left unallocated to "let the kids play." And this is what everyone uses. And they are like you were proposing to pull one of their teeth for every 100MHz they give up for actual use.

AndrewBienhaus · Wed Jun 11, 2025 12:37 am

...and I mean my posting in fun.... not sure where everyone here is, but at someone in North America, yes, the FCC has the "occasional overacting bloated government impact" on us.

lurker888 · Wed Jun 11, 2025 1:13 am

Back on topic: I was going to ask whether you actually have some -US variant?

AndrewBienhaus · Fri Jun 13, 2025 12:34 am

Looking and the label, and remembering older Mikrotik with the "-US" on the model, I do not see that on this one.
If you want to see the sticker - say the word, and I'll post it.

So - that SMA $%^#@&%*&$&*@ was a nightmare. Cables, adapters, blah blah blah.
Ended up overnighting from Digikey to just get the right combo of RP-SMA male.... ugh. (uncommon apparently, not the average overnight amazon SMA)

I promised a photo - what do you think?

(note the measurement)

And, by using grey PVC with outdoor cable (cab tire) waterproof seals, I have even sealed to the antenna base.
Any point in aiming the paddles any particular way?