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jparsons
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Wireless card recieve blows issue

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:06 am

I have a problem that hopefully someone out there can give me some advice on... this is not directly related to the mikrotik OS or the routerboards, but the problem did not exist prior to using them, so i thought I would ask here and see if anyone else has come across this...

I migrated from a few YDI wipops, which had an lucent/avaya ap1000 mounted at the based of the tower in a weather proof enclosure, then to a power injector, then LMR600 up 100' or so, to an amplifier powered from the injector, then to an 12 db omni antenna. This was ok...
Then I came across mikrotik, and fell in love and started switching towers out. All is running GREAT, except any tower that has an OMNI directional antenna blows cards very often. When i say blows, i mean the reciever basically goes out, but the transmit still works, as i can see the device from a netstumbler scan on a laptop, but i cannot see anything when i do a scan from the tower. I swap the card out and bingo... all back to normal.

This does seem to only occur during an electrical storm (lightning) but they have never recieved direct hits, and I have tried them with and without surge supressors. Also tried some other high dollar polyphase blockers... no luck...

I now mount the mikrotik at the top near the antenna (within 10 ft or so) without amplifiers, and then run a shielded CAT5 down to the base for power and configuration.

All towers that use sector panels... work fine and I have never lost a card on any of them. I started changing out the OMNI's to sectors and so far, I haven't lost any of those that were switched, through the last 5 or more storms. However every storm i still lose the omni's that are left (only 1 left as of today, there were 10 or so before) I went through probably 30-40 SR2 cards so far because of this problem.. so it was getting expensive.

Also wanted to note i tried running a seperate ground from the box, antenna, and surge suppressor straight to a ground rod and that didnt help either.


I know this was a long winded explanation and I may have confused everyone, but if anyone has run into this or has any suggestion, I would sure appreciate it!
I like being able to pop omni's up here and there at a low cost, but not at the cost of 40 SR2 cards, plus the time and labor to change them out...
and the sectors are too cumbersome to use in some areas, and get full 360 coverage.

Thanks in advance!
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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budi_a
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:33 am

Use :

- DC Grounded Omni
- Use Ethernet surge protector

- Ground your :
- board
- enclosure
- antenna mounting
- etc.


Thx
//Budi
 
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ghmorris
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:44 pm

I have a problem that hopefully someone out there can give me some advice on... this is not directly related to the mikrotik OS or the routerboards, but the problem did not exist prior to using them, so i thought I would ask here and see if anyone else has come across this...
What antenna and what radio card?

Sounds like a PacWireless omni. If so, we've had the same problem.

Changing antennas will get rid of the problem as in receive drops by 20dB after a storm.

George
 
jparsons
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Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:56 pm

Yes most of them are pacWireless, 3 of them were older YDI antennas, that had been deployed for 1-2 years already without any problems, but they did not blow near as often as the pacwireless.

What brand/model of antenna did you switch to? I am willing to try another, although i am a little gunshy...

sometimes recieve woul drop 20dB like you say, although occasionally it was much more.

the card were all ubiquiti SR2's origianlly, then i tried some NMP-8602's same thing happened though.
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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ghmorris
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Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:00 pm

Yes most of them are pacWireless, 3 of them were older YDI antennas, that had been deployed for 1-2 years already without any problems, but they did not blow near as often as the pacwireless.

What brand/model of antenna did you switch to? I am willing to try another, although i am a little gunshy...
I'm back to using the Superpass 2.4 8dB Omnis. Only had two problems in four years of use with fifty in the field, price is very reasonable and they deliver the gain they advertise. Don't know why the PacWireless cause problems, but they do. Pity, the mounting hardware is great.

George
 
jparsons
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Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:54 pm

I talked with PacWireless about these antennas, OD24-12, and the engineer believes that there may have been a manufacturing problem with them, and they were not built with DC grounding as they were supposed to be... he is going to verify it and then let me know what needs to be done.

I'll let you know what he says for sure ....
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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jparsons
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Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:48 pm

Talked with them just a few minutes ago.. seems there is a defect in the mfg of the antenna, and I was told to RMA them. So if anyone else is experiencing this, you might contact pacwireless, or your distributer regarding this. He told me they were going to rework the product and wasn't sure when they would have the replacement product out.
this only applies to the OD24-12 Omni 12DBi Antenna.
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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mwi
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Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:27 pm

jparsons, please shoot me a e-mail to discuss a very similar problem I had. I may just have a cure for you. mail@moorelandisp.com Thanks Kenny
 
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Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:51 am

jparsons.
Any new updates on your problem? Would like to here your cure.If you found one.
 
jparsons
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Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:43 pm

No definate fix yet, but, I haven't tried it yet ... I just recieved a couple of new antennas, a 9DB PacWireless that the engineers said is grounded properly, and one from a 12 DBi Commercial grade one from radiolabs.com that they say is grounded properly too, I am going to try them both out, I have a setup going up this week, ill keep you posted....
may take a few days / weeks to know for sure.

the first electrical storm will tell me for sure, I couldn't make it thorugh one before...
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:19 pm

I have been having this issue at a new AP I put up about 2 weeks ago. The site is using a 15dBi omni from Pasadena networks(don't know manufacturer). My other 9 APs are using a 15dBi omni from hyperlink (no issues), and the 1 other site is using a 15dBi omni from Pasadena networks.

I have lost 3 radios at a new site (only on the omni, the other radio is fine and continues to operate a 24dBi grid).
At first I just thought it was a failed card, but now I have lost 2 during a small t-storm. These are small t-storms for my area. The sites have not been hit, nor to my knowledge has any lightning hit close to the site. Most of the lightning is overhead. I am at a loss for what is causing this, I am going to change card and omni today as soon as weather clears.

My two theories are currently, wind induced static electricity builds up on the omni and discharges into the card. Or overhead lightning is inducing a charge in the omni and discharging into the radio.
If anyone has any solutions please do tell.
 
jimmy230
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same problem to me

Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:10 am

I use wifi-link omni anntena 15 dbi and atheros card.. mikrotik
i have to change my card evry time it rains, I hope someone can find a solution to this problem. please advice me what to do
 
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Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:07 pm

I all. we are having the same problem her in Sweden...
but . we rebuilt the antennas with better grounding, that helps some times. and i reparing the radiocards by removing the Diversity switch in the cards. then the cards working perfect again :-) so pleas do not throw the cards in the trasch cans!.

//Rickard
 
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Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:47 pm

yes, very often problem with Omni antennas, because, as I understood, they collect statical electricity, until radio gets blown. I've got card blowned almost every week.

I also thought that there is no solution for this problem, but in fact solution was quite simple. I took few meters of cord (wide one): then I wrapped one end around the connector on the antenna (on the place where cable connects to antenna), and another end to lightning rod. So far (5 months) there was not single problem.

I'll try to post some pictures when I'll go on the roof :)
 
titius
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Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:55 pm

I all. we are having the same problem her in Sweden...
but . we rebuilt the antennas with better grounding, that helps some times. and i reparing the radiocards by removing the Diversity switch in the cards. then the cards working perfect again Smile so pleas do not throw the cards in the trasch cans!.
Please tell us how some pictures schematic can you??

And about the static problem I HATE PacWireless Omni ants, I switched to homemade 17db waveguide and AMOS ANTENNA

web site is on Serbian language but you'll get around and there is some english links to sites and people who tried to make this great antenna for few bucks.

And something more I thought I was only guy on earth to have problem with static electricity :), you dont need to groung the antenna if its hard to achieve, but antennas must be mounted on the same pole or whether you mount them all the antennas ground elements have to be connected to each other (not the ground but all antennas together) and you'll have less mailfunctions and problems... Ofcorse you cant put 100 ants on the same pole but if there is more than one antenna on one mounting pole there has to bo a good connectivity to mounting pole both antennas ground elements have to be conected to mounting pole better connection longer the cards live :)
 
jober
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Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:27 pm

Just think about the number of radios that have been killed by these antennas that we know of here on this forum. Now just think how many we don't know about.

Do I smell a class action lawsuit!

Just a joke guys.....
 
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:35 am

I don't know about the law suit, because i use Trendnet TW-503PI, and it was always replaced under warranty, although reseller was suspicios what are we doing to those cards :)

So, anyway: Pacific Wireless should be informed about this problem, because it's a MAJOR problem, not some minor bug. There are "tweaks" how to prevent this, but anyway, this shouldn't happen.
 
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:39 am

And about the static problem I HATE PacWireless Omni ants, I switched to homemade 17db waveguide and AMOS ANTENNA

web site is on Serbian language but you'll get around and there is some english links to sites and people who tried to make this great antenna for few bucks.
Yes titius, we know there is a lot of better antennas, but what about us who bought 30 pieces of those antennas? Replacament with other antennas, which don't cover full 360 degs is not a solution. Pacific Wireless should fix this.
 
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Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:40 am

anyway

Rickard please can you tell us how do you change diversity switch
 
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Yes titius, we know there is a lot of better antennas, but what about us who bought 30 pieces of those antennas? Replacament with other antennas, which don't cover full 360 degs is not a solution. Pacific Wireless should fix this.
if that antenna is not omni ... 360 ... then send them back to ... netiks ?:)
 
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aitsecurity
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Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:58 am

Talked with them just a few minutes ago.. seems there is a defect in the mfg of the antenna, and I was told to RMA them. So if anyone else is experiencing this, you might contact pacwireless, or your distributer regarding this. He told me they were going to rework the product and wasn't sure when they would have the replacement product out.
this only applies to the OD24-12 Omni 12DBi Antenna.

oooo ooo, i have one customer, change the radios 3 times, he have pacwireless od24-12 omni, when rain soft or hard, loss EIRP,

i have this problem now, in this month
 
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aitsecurity
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Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:02 am

yes, very often problem with Omni antennas, because, as I understood, they collect statical electricity, until radio gets blown. I've got card blowned almost every week.

I also thought that there is no solution for this problem, but in fact solution was quite simple. I took few meters of cord (wide one): then I wrapped one end around the connector on the antenna (on the place where cable connects to antenna), and another end to lightning rod. So far (5 months) there was not single problem.

I'll try to post some pictures when I'll go on the roof :)
please give me a photos here, i want to see how you fix this problem.

Best Regards
 
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aitsecurity
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Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:05 am

I don't know about the law suit, because i use Trendnet TW-503PI, and it was always replaced under warranty, although reseller was suspicios what are we doing to those cards :)

So, anyway: Pacific Wireless should be informed about this problem, because it's a MAJOR problem, not some minor bug. There are "tweaks" how to prevent this, but anyway, this shouldn't happen.
mmm i have lost 3 radios, and use the antenna od24-12, in 2 months
 
jparsons
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:59 pm

Well I hav etried several different antennas now, and i still have the same problem I am going to try something suggested to me, and run a piece of heavy gauge copper wire up the side of the antenna, and run that to a good ground.

anybody have any comments on this?

what do you think this will do to the signal or reception of the antenna?
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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jparsons
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Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:00 pm

also, I have a box full of about 30 of these blown cards now, if someone has a fix for them... I would love to see example or have some instrucitons on how to repair them.
~ Jaron Parsons ~
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Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:29 am

Jparsons, Give it a try!! 75days uptime through several T-storms! Best piece of copper wire I ever installed. Will try to get you some pics in a few days as I will be climbing silo to add 900mhz to the mix.
Any cure for the broke cm9's????
 
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aitsecurity
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Jparsons, Give it a try!! 75days uptime through several T-storms! Best piece of copper wire I ever installed. Will try to get you some pics in a few days as I will be climbing silo to add 900mhz to the mix.
Any cure for the broke cm9's????
yes please give a photos

thanks in advance
 
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Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:58 pm

Same problem here with "no brand name" omni's 8 and 12dbi

replaced them with 8dbi Stella doradus and not had any problem again.

had a lot of discussions with manuf and on the forums, no one did believe it, but i tried 8 radios on two of those 12dbi type antennas and all blow up with rainy weather like you guys say, after changing grounding several times , routerboard, pigtails etc, we at last replaced the omni for other brand and problem was gone.

i use the broken radios in the test systems witch are very close to eachother with signal strenghts of -80 to -90, and works great for testing new config before uploading to the real towers 8)
 
Gerard
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Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:29 pm

I've fried over 20 SR2's with omni's.. Before I finally came up with a very simple yet effective fix..

Promise not to laugh..

Cheapo grounding rod with a few peices of stranded wire soldered to one end.. I clamp the other end to the top of my tower sticking about 1ft over the top of the onmi. I then fan out the stranded wire so that it looks like a pom pom on the end.. If my structure is not grounded then I run a ground wire to the grounding rod at the top. If the tower I'm using is already grounded then I don't worry about running an extra grounding wire.
Image

I recently tried a new way of doing the same thing.. I take a small gauge ground wire and run it down the omni making a couple twists along the way to keep it in place. I then take some stranded copper wire and solder it to the end of the wire. I fan it out the same way I did with the larger wire above..
Image

I've been using both setups for several months now and have not lost a radio since. I was losing a radio almost every storm before I started installing these.

-Gerard
 
jparsons
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Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:50 pm

You are my hero!
That is exactly what i am going to try too, fairly soon.
mwi, suggested teh same to me, and I havent had a chance to implement it yet, i had already cahnged all but one tower to two 180 sector antennas, which i didnt want to do, but it was the only thing working. the one tower i have left with an omni is hurting right now, but only has one cusotmer on it and they live underneath the tower. thier signal sits at about -80 but they are on.. so i am going to try this out on it, and if all goes well. I will report back here.

Gerard, did you try it without the "pom,pom" on top and did it not work? or just wanted to overkill it right off the bat and not have to worry about it?
Did the copper wire seem to hurt the signal levels any?
 
jparsons
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Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:52 pm

Also, I would like to know how to "fix" the blown cards if anyone knows.
 
Gerard
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Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:29 pm

Gerard, did you try it without the "pom,pom" on top and did it not work? or just wanted to overkill it right off the bat and not have to worry about it?
Did the copper wire seem to hurt the signal levels any?

No I never tried without it. I tried to replicate the expensive static dissapaters I saw tessco selling.. I tried several different materials for the pom pom but the copper wire worked just as good as everything else I tried.

I didn't notice any decreases in signal strength with just the copper wire.

I did notice if I placed the thicker grounding rod version directly agianst the omni the customers on that side would have slightly less signal (1-2db). however If I moved the grounding rod 6" away from the omni there was no noticible loss of signal.

-Gerard
 
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:06 am

I can add my pile of cm9's to the list :-)

Thanks for the tip on using the copper wire, I will try this.

Do the R52's suffer from this as much? I assume that would but it would be intresting to see.
 
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Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:36 pm

Nice tip, Gerard. Those aren't cheap to buy commercially. I'd never thought about using one on an omni!
 
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dibatech
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Repair CM9 diversity Switch

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:18 pm

With cards broken in this way i have found that you can most of the times measure and check if the diversity switch is faulty.

Do this at your own peril!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you measure after the capacitor closest to the ufl connector you are supposed to measure very close to 50 Ohms. Most of the cards that have died due to static measure well below that. (3 to 25 ohms)


Take the whole card and preheat to abot 40-60 degress in a oven.
User hot-air solder tool to heat the whole diversity switch. The diversity switch have got quite a huge earth-plane (Thats why we pre-heat)
Do not use a high air-flow as you will blow other smaller components off the board :shock:

Remove diversity switch completely and wire the 2 points with single strands of fine wire.

Hope this helps!
 
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mwi
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Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:42 am

any pics or more info on diversity switch removal? Thanks
 
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dibatech
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Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:47 am

Image

Connect Pins
TX to A1
RX to A2

The TX & RX pins are the ones closest to the ufl Connectors.
Diversity switch disabled!
 
freebird
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Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:57 am

This should be a picture of the switch:

Image

seandsl
--
 
Velocity
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Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:50 pm

can someone add the nice drawing again ?, seems to be gone
 
Velocity
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Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:37 pm

Thanks ! , i can see its back
 
Velocity
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Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:12 pm

Think the method of wiring the Rx and Tx straight will only work for the cards if you plan them to use for N-stream/ only Tx or Rx mode.

for normal use of only one antenna connector you HAVE to use the diversity switch i believe, and were to get those ?

numbers on the chip are 512 / 3011 / 21, no brand or anything else.

can someone confirm that only diversitychip is broken ?, and the card has its original receive sensivity on the Rx port when wired straight ?
 
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Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:03 am

we have a number of the pac wireless antenna's out there, and we've only lost 1 radio... it was on a tower we *forgot* to put on a surge protector... put one on, and we've been running good ever since.

we use a polyphaser AL-LSXM-MA connected to every one of our boxes where the NMale bulkhead connector comes out of the outdoor box, connecting to the antenna cable. we ground the polyphaser to the tower with a short ground wire... we had a near strike once at a tower, blew out all the polyphaser's, (had about 20db of loss through them, as opposed to the 0.2 it's supposed to have), but we didn't loose a single radio or routerboard. We just changed out the polyphaser with a new one, and all customers came right back online.
 
jparsons
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Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:16 pm

Well, as an update, I did just as mwi and gerard suggested, and have now been up for more than 30 days on that tower! for that tower.. that is a record! I did not put the pom pom on mine, but if it looks to be needed in the future I will.

Thanks for all your advice!

also thanks for the pics on the card fix, ill give it a try as time permits...
 
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aitsecurity
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Well, as an update, I did just as mwi and gerard suggested, and have now been up for more than 30 days on that tower! for that tower.. that is a record! I did not put the pom pom on mine, but if it looks to be needed in the future I will.

Thanks for all your advice!

also thanks for the pics on the card fix, ill give it a try as time permits...
is a very good notice, one week ago, in the roof in a house, a Tranzeo radio, put everything, but no finished) , put Tranzeo Tr-6600, omni 12 dBi hyperlink, and lightning arrestor, but no finished, no grounded.

the radio work very fine, give a 71 dBm, a 2 meters, in two hours, work fine, more later , rain soft, and 15 minutes, the radio lost EIRP,

i have a conclusion about this, my customers, Wisp, have problem with static, when the town is high and have mountain, i have 5 omnis, in sea level 0 meters , never problem, my conclusion is, if you put in mountain and the town is high example 700 meters, the static is more.

in my town is 0 meters and have radios 2 years work fine, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

---QUESTIONS----------------


1) NOW YOU WRITE HERE, no put the POM POM in you omni, how you protect ????, where is the magic? why you have 30 days no problems

2), is a good idea, two ground, one ground for the radio and lightning arrestors, and other ground for only the pom pom, i know if use two ground, have differential voltage in ground, but i am not sure, i thinking put only the pom pom with special ground, for only static, if static go to pom pom, go to radio , and go to lightning arrestors, and go inside the booster of the radio, and the radio lost the EIRP ni give more 1 dBm, in 1 meters, is the reason put two ground.

PEOPLE what you thinks ?

thanks in Advance
 
jparsons
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Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:33 am

My appologies, this reply was more for those helping that were familiar with what i was going to try (read several of my previous posts)
I put a piece of number 8 wire up the side of the antenna and about six inches above the top. and secured it to the side of the antenna all the way down to the surge arrestor (i have used the polyphaser as well with the same results FYI) and secured it to the same ground that the rest of the equipment is using.
If i get back up there I will get some pictures.

I am located primarily in Kansas, USA. We are plagued with lots of wind here, and after talking to several people here, and then several radio engineers (some specializing in antennas and design) As i understand it the wind causes static buildup on the antennas, and eventually causes the problem. which would make sense because the problem has happened after just a very windy day with no clouds. I am no expert on the subject, but before in the same position with the same antenna. I would lose a card a week (on a good week) now i have gone 30+ days without a problem, just by adding a piece of copper wire up the side of the antenna.
What i meant by no pom,pom was that I used just a piece of wire without the pompom at the end.

sorry for the confusion.
 
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aitsecurity
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Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:42 am

My appologies, this reply was more for those helping that were familiar with what i was going to try (read several of my previous posts)
I put a piece of number 8 wire up the side of the antenna and about six inches above the top. and secured it to the side of the antenna all the way down to the surge arrestor (i have used the polyphaser as well with the same results FYI) and secured it to the same ground that the rest of the equipment is using.
If i get back up there I will get some pictures.

I am located primarily in Kansas, USA. We are plagued with lots of wind here, and after talking to several people here, and then several radio engineers (some specializing in antennas and design) As i understand it the wind causes static buildup on the antennas, and eventually causes the problem. which would make sense because the problem has happened after just a very windy day with no clouds. I am no expert on the subject, but before in the same position with the same antenna. I would lose a card a week (on a good week) now i have gone 30+ days without a problem, just by adding a piece of copper wire up the side of the antenna.
What i meant by no pom,pom was that I used just a piece of wire without the pompom at the end.

sorry for the confusion.
thanks very much for you very fast reply, very nice solution, really i want see you pictures.

thanks very much

Best Regards
 
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Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:08 am

My appologies, this reply was more for those helping that were familiar with what i was going to try (read several of my previous posts)
I put a piece of number 8 wire up the side of the antenna and about six inches above the top. and secured it to the side of the antenna all the way down to the surge arrestor (i have used the polyphaser as well with the same results FYI) and secured it to the same ground that the rest of the equipment is using.
If i get back up there I will get some pictures.

I am located primarily in Kansas, USA. We are plagued with lots of wind here, and after talking to several people here, and then several radio engineers (some specializing in antennas and design) As i understand it the wind causes static buildup on the antennas, and eventually causes the problem. which would make sense because the problem has happened after just a very windy day with no clouds. I am no expert on the subject, but before in the same position with the same antenna. I would lose a card a week (on a good week) now i have gone 30+ days without a problem, just by adding a piece of copper wire up the side of the antenna.
What i meant by no pom,pom was that I used just a piece of wire without the pompom at the end.

sorry for the confusion.
In a windy spot.
My guess is that it is the fiberglass on the outside of the omni building up static. It jumps to the after a certain ammount of buildup.
 
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How to resolve this question?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:05 pm

How to resolve this question?

For normal use of only one antenna connector you HAVE to use the diversity switch i believe, and were to get those ?


Think the method of wiring the Rx and Tx straight will only work for the cards if you plan them to use for N-stream/ only Tx or Rx mode.

for normal use of only one antenna connector you HAVE to use the diversity switch i believe, and were to get those ?

numbers on the chip are 512 / 3011 / 21, no brand or anything else.

can someone confirm that only diversitychip is broken ?, and the card has its original receive sensivity on the Rx port when wired straight ?
Last edited by rosariowireless on Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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How to set to 1 UFL Connector TX and RX

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:06 pm

How to set to 1 UFL Connector TX and RX

Tks in advance.

Image

Connect Pins
TX to A1
RX to A2

The TX & RX pins are the ones closest to the ufl Connectors.
Diversity switch disabled!
 
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blown radios on CPEs

Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:33 am

[img]
My appologies, this reply was more for those helping that were familiar with what i was going to try (read several of my previous posts)
I put a piece of number 8 wire up the side of the antenna and about six inches above the top. and secured it to the side of the antenna all the way down to the surge arrestor (i have used the polyphaser as well with the same results FYI) and secured it to the same ground that the rest of the equipment is using.
If i get back up there I will get some pictures.

I am located primarily in Kansas, USA. We are plagued with lots of wind here, and after talking to several people here, and then several radio engineers (some specializing in antennas and design) As i understand it the wind causes static buildup on the antennas, and eventually causes the problem. which would make sense because the problem has happened after just a very windy day with no clouds. I am no expert on the subject, but before in the same position with the same antenna. I would lose a card a week (on a good week) now i have gone 30+ days without a problem, just by adding a piece of copper wire up the side of the antenna.
What i meant by no pom,pom was that I used just a piece of wire without the pompom at the end.

sorry for the confusion.
This is now the beginning of December. Is this stil working for you. We have a similar problem in South Africa. We are about 3000 feet above sea level with a lot of lightning and thunder, also dry weather. We are loosing cm9 and rb52 on cpe's (using wrap board with either radios, 5.8 ghz). About 20 clients for about 2 months, lost about 10 radios so far, mostly in electric storms or some on windy days. I have one client that I loose after each storm, he is on a 36 feet metal pole (with grounding rod) -- see pic. We know the problem is caused by static electricity. We were first using a all plastic enclosure and replace it with a unit that has a metal backplate we we experise the same problem. I am going to replace the radio again today including the copper rod you suggest to see if this will solve our problem.

I am happy to see other's have the same problem and that somehow we should get around this problem. We will be getting Roo enclosures that we are importing from the states and we hope this will help us overcome our problems.

Your comments. (not sure how to add a image? first time posting!)
 
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Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:35 am

welcome to the forum! to post an image, you should enclose the image url with the img tag in brackets. if you hover your mouse over the IMG button it will show you. you need the image to be hosted on some server, no uploads here.
 
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Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:42 am

----
yes, by post image i think easy to make user forum understood...
again, welcome to this forum.

regards
Hasbullah.com
----
 
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Re: blown radios on CPEs

Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:57 am

This is now the beginning of December. Is this stil working for you.

Several months have gone by and I have not lost a single card since I first started using the wire/pompom's/grounding rods.. I've found that a single wire 4-8" above the top of the omni seems to be just as effective as the whole pom pom thing I was doing at first.

-Gerard
 
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Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:58 pm

The problem is atheros chip set . see :
http://forum.mikrotik.com//viewtopic.php?p=60412
 
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Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:56 pm

The problem is atheros chip set . see :
http://forum.mikrotik.com//viewtopic.php?p=60412
In that thread you talk about packet loss or interference or whatever ... it's really not clear what your problem is other than you seem to have one. This is most certainly not related to the issue discussed here.

I do think, however, that the "card blows issue" is an Atheros problem. I have learned a lot from reading this thread, but we do not use MT hardware and software and still get the same problems with vanilla Wistron miniPCI cards bought from another vendor.

My hint is: do measure the DC resistance of the antenna in question. If it has 0 ohms (DC wise) you got a model with DC grounding and you are most probably safe from static discharge into the receiver module. If you measure "infinity" ohms, you do not have DC grounding but that does not always mean you got a problem:

For example, the MT 30 dBi (5 GHz) dish does not have DC grounding because its "horn feed" is a simple reversly mounted "cantenna". That works well and we had a discharge loss only once among 200 systems in 2 years - probably because the dish protects the feed in a similar way the "Pom Pom" suggested here protects an Omni antenna.

Likewise, we do use 120 degrees 5 GHz antennas sold by Proxim. They do not have DC grounding but they got a metallic "reflector" in their back which is nothing else than a rather wide Pom Pom. Other antenna types like flat panels are also built with a ground plane in their back that helps.

That leaves us pretty much with Omnis, which have their ground plane at their bottom. You could mount them next to the mast (not on top) - that seems to help as we've found - or you try the Pom Pom which kind of extends the ground plane up along the antennas body - which obviously helps as this thread indicates. I'm still wondering, though, to what extent this will cause degradation of the signal level. Results so far are mixed - the negative effect was minimal in some cases but is was noticeable (10 dBs) in others.

While the Pom Pom may be cheap and effective, the proper solution to me seems to add external DC grounding (either as a LC or as a quarter wave filter element) into the RF cable. Please note that I do not refer to a gas discharge lightning protector - this is someting else and does not provide DC grounding, and that's why it hasn't helped anybody here.
--
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Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:15 am

We ran a small wire from the top of the omni (no pom pom) to the bottom part of the omni, then to the radio, then to a 6 foot earth rod, problem was fixed for us. :-)

Also, we not see any loss of signal at all (20 clients on that omni)
 
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Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:40 pm

Equis,
could you send a photo to better understand?
thanks in advance
 
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Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:40 pm

I think Gerard posted pictures of the setup.
 
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Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:56 pm

http://forum.mikrotik.com//viewtopic.php?t=9734


I dont worry about the pom pom bit.
 
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:35 am

We ran a small wire from the top of the omni (no pom pom) to the bottom part of the omni,


the bottom part means the base of the omni where there is the connector
then to the radio
to the ground of the mini pci or to the RB532 board

Could you tell me if you use a surge protection like this http://www.interprojekt.com.pl/minitar- ... p-236.html and if anyone has try to use only the surge protection solve the issue?

thanks
Max
 
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:21 pm

Hello

Yes, thats the part of the omni I use.

Just to the Metal Radio box (thats eather radio inside)

No, I don't use any other surge protector.

Never lost a card since I did this, used to lose every week.

I am very grateful to all on the other thread that talked about it.

;-)
 
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:07 pm

I'm not sure why your cards are keep getting fried so many times in same fashion,

but why don't you buy a long surge arrestor that can cover 50meter (it should cost around 700 to 800 USD and install it in a distance from your AP so no more frying stuff.

I even wonder if thunder strike one place more than 10 times!!!
 
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Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:24 pm

Repeat: This is not about THUNDER strikes (or at least not only) but about static buildup in a windy or even a rainy condition. This is also why a lightning (gas) protector will not protect. You need something like DC-grounding that constantly prevents the static, or the wire-on-the-side (aka "Pom Pom") which applies a ground level around the body of the Omni antenna.
--
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Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:09 am

We use gas-discharge surge protectors on EVERY radio on EVERY tower. I have probably 4 or 5 pac-wireless 12dBi omnis in the field, and a few other brands. We've never lost a radio to this issue.
 
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Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:52 am

We use gas-discharge surge protectors on EVERY radio on EVERY tower. I have probably 4 or 5 pac-wireless 12dBi omnis in the field, and a few other brands. We've never lost a radio to this issue.
nickb, consider yourself very lucky! I was one too that has had this ESD problem. And I use gas-discharge surge protectors on EVERY radio on EVERY tower. I cannot recall just how many cm9's I had went through in a month from ESD. Since I added the copper wire to the side of the Omni my troubles have totaly gone away. It sounds crazy that this idea would even work, but it did fix of patch the problem. Best bare piece of copper I ever purchased! And I think it has helped others as well. :D

Regards
 
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Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:35 pm

Since I added the copper wire to the side of the Omni my troubles have totaly gone away
Could you tell me if you have also notice some difference in terms of signal client, latency, ping time? I want understand if a problem that I have from long time is related a not ground issue + ESD problem.

thanks
Max
 
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Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:56 am

nickb, consider yourself very lucky! I was one too that has had this ESD problem. And I use gas-discharge surge protectors on EVERY radio on EVERY tower. I cannot recall just how many cm9's I had went through in a month from ESD. Since I added the copper wire to the side of the Omni my troubles have totaly gone away. It sounds crazy that this idea would even work, but it did fix of patch the problem. Best bare piece of copper I ever purchased! And I think it has helped others as well.
Yes, I'm glad we have not had this problem. Honestly I think that it depends heavily on the climate of where the equipment is located. i.e. humidity, temperature, types of storms, wind patterns, and things of this nature. When I first heard about this issue several months ago, I became very nervious and started watching closely. However, nothing has happened (or had happened before) of this nature. I find it odd, considering that we are in the midwest, and have lots of wind and some pretty heavy duty thunderstorms.

We've lost our share of equipment in storms, but never this specific type of problem.
 
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Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:47 am

You are my hero!
That is exactly what i am going to try too, fairly soon.
mwi, suggested teh same to me, and I havent had a chance to implement it yet, i had already cahnged all but one tower to two 180 sector antennas, which i didnt want to do, but it was the only thing working. the one tower i have left with an omni is hurting right now, but only has one cusotmer on it and they live underneath the tower. thier signal sits at about -80 but they are on.. so i am going to try this out on it, and if all goes well. I will report back here.

Gerard, did you try it without the "pom,pom" on top and did it not work? or just wanted to overkill it right off the bat and not have to worry about it?
Did the copper wire seem to hurt the signal levels any?
Dude,
you should not do that.
it looks so ugly when you thousands of volts wrapping around your
antenna. I believe it even generate a gargantuan electro magnetic
power, specially with those curve around the antenna.

just buy simple copper lightning arrestor, the cheap one is around 5 buck
in here. you must hang it totally separately from your antenna. there
must be no shortage to your antenna
Last edited by Hellbound on Sat Jan 20, 2007 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: blown radios on CPEs

Sat Jan 20, 2007 8:03 am

This is now the beginning of December. Is this stil working for you. We have a similar problem in South Africa. We are about 3000 feet above sea level with a lot of lightning and thunder, also dry weather. We are loosing cm9 and rb52 on cpe's (using wrap board with either radios, 5.8 ghz). About 20 clients for about 2 months, lost about 10 radios so far, mostly in electric storms or some on windy days. I have one client that I loose after each storm, he is on a 36 feet metal pole (with grounding rod) -- see pic. We know the problem is caused by static electricity. We were first using a all plastic enclosure and replace it with a unit that has a metal backplate we we experise the same problem. I am going to replace the radio again today including the copper rod you suggest to see if this will solve our problem.

I am happy to see other's have the same problem and that somehow we should get around this problem. We will be getting Roo enclosures that we are importing from the states and we hope this will help us overcome our problems.

Your comments. (not sure how to add a image? first time posting!)
Do you have power regulator?
every time there is a storm hitting our tower
our fuse will trip and we have fused everything with
very low amp.
use some online UPS, specially power regulator.
also Use Surge arrestor on each antenna and as well as
Ethernet surge arrestor.

Try to kill every possible way of surge coming to your board.
I doubt if it is your casing that is directly receiving the electric surge.
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:25 pm

Hello.
I'm living at the baltic sea and we have exactly the same problems, you described.
At the beginning of the thread it seems, that a "bug" in the PacificWireless-Omnis causes the problem of "loosing radios".
Is this true? We are using Pacific-Wireless OD24-9 Omnis and I wish to know if we can solve the problem by changig the brand. Or is it a problem related to the antenna-type, in this case omni?
Philipp
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:08 pm

after three years of consuming PW products, we have concluded that they have less than 2 year lifespan of good quality, after that their product will get corrosion from inside out, their welding point will get loose and the total performacen of the antennas will drop.

recently all 24db grid parabolic that we ordered from PW had mis matched assembly holes. body didn't simply match at screw holes.

Now, if you tell me that it cause card to get fried or the antenna simply drop its quality in short period of time? I wouldn't be surprised.

We had used Hyperlinktech product, they are very good and they have followed standard, and so far we did not have any sort of failure from their products, except surges. however their sales department is very selfish and they treat you poorly and they have limitation on orders for overseas and etc. they only accept wire transfer which is difficult.


good luck
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:42 pm

Yes... for the most part it did fix the problem. I have lost a couple cards from DIRECT hits, but nothing like i was losing before adding the copper wire up the side of the antenna (several cards a week), extending it about 6-8 inches higher than the antenna, and then grounding that well to the tower or all the way down to a ground rod at the base. I have also used SP-6 surge suppressors on the antennas, with some luck.
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:56 am

I've noticed that I've only lost atheros cards when there is improper grounding. I usually have a gas tube arrestor closest to the radio, which still seems to not be a guarentee. We have been putting ground kits on all of the coax cable. I would say that one thing has helped immensely. So far I haven't lost a radio to ESD where there are coax ground kits. I'm in NE Oklahoma, so there can be lots of wind and electical storms. Also, many of my base stations are on water towers; and I generally run my own ground wire down to the bottom of the tower to about 2-3 ground rods.

Eric
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:13 pm

Hi all,
I have lost 2 wrap2c boards using both mikrotik and Ikarus os due to lighting static, in the close proximity.
I have had to replace the mother boards, but the os on flash, and the wireless cards: atharos 200mw cards have been returned to service without any problems.
yes it can get costly, and not give much confidence to customers.

I think that the esd diodes on the boards do there job and blow!!

Any help with protection appreciated.

Sat dave
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:08 am

The easiest and most effective way to DC ground an antenna is to use a short circuited quarter wave stub at the centre of operating frequency.

http://www.hubersuhner.com/mozilla/prod ... b-princ-qw

Such a stub can be made using a high quality N type T piece, insert into antenna coax at base of omni and attach another N plug into the side with a shorted length of coax.

The stub acts as a bandpass filter to 5.8Ghz, it attenuates signals out of the bandwidth and also provides a DC ground.

However the coax shield needs to be grounded somewhere along its route with a low impedance connection to the ground.


The following applies to those concerned of direct hits.
Ground wires should be attached to the legs of the tower and run alonside the structure to the top. Coaxial cables should run up the centre of the tower and should not come into contact with the legs of a tower.

Ethernet cables the same.

Guy wires should be grounded and run across the top of any ancillary buildings below the tower.
Lightning arrestors fitted to top of tower, ball or spikes.
These are there to prevent the build up of static and to stop the tower becoming charged to the point where a lead off taper might begin.

The tower should have a earth ring around its base and all points tied to it. Points of entries into buildings need to have copper bulkheads which are tied to same ground.

Watch out when using typical 2 pole SMPS units, 2 pole by definition means that their supply rails are floating from earth, it could be that many folk believe that their towers are earthed when indeed by the nature of the type of supplies that we are using in this industry, nothing could be further from the truth.

Simonjpryce@hotmail.com
Wireless Waves.SL (spain)
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:56 pm

Hey all, Just a question... I have all of my 2.4ghz Omni antennas Hooked up with the Pom Pom design, Thank you inventor :-) But is this required on the 900mhz Omni's (getting a Pacific wireless 9.2 dbi omni. "8" ft. high)? Using the Ubiquiti Brand Sr9/Xr9.. Just curious becaus im setting up another 2.4Ghz/900mhz AP'S and need to know... Thanks -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:11 pm

I don't do anything special for my 900mhz omni's and I haven't lost any cards yet..

-Gerard
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:19 pm

I don't do anything special for my 900mhz omni's and I haven't lost any cards yet..

-Gerard
Alright Gerard, Thats what i will do then :-) thanks for this good invention. saved me Radios! -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:59 pm

Johan

Dis die static jong.....
yes, very often problem with Omni antennas, because, as I understood, they collect statical electricity, until radio gets blown. I've got card blowned almost every week.

I also thought that there is no solution for this problem, but in fact solution was quite simple. I took few meters of cord (wide one): then I wrapped one end around the connector on the antenna (on the place where cable connects to antenna), and another end to lightning rod. So far (5 months) there was not single problem.
See above thread from Krunoslav....

We had the same problem - especially on Water Towers (for some reason) and Silos...

All we did was as Krunoslav said - this was ± 2 years ago and we haven't had a single failure since then... en dit reën hier!!! - BAIE...

As an aside - I've noticed that the SR2's and WRG card are way more suseptible to static than others (RB52's).

Hope this helps

//Tanker
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:36 pm

I also was having the same problem as was first posted here, a radio blown in 2 weeks at most. Even though I saw a couple of posts where the pom pom was not used, I made one up with the pom pom. Have not lost the radio since then, signals are great and data throughput is just fine.

Thanks to those who found the solution.

tk
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:38 pm

I ran a ground without pom pom, just 3 inches above the top, on my 2.4GHz omni as well as my 900MHz. Cheap insurance.
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:11 pm

I ran a ground without pom pom, just 3 inches above the top, on my 2.4GHz omni as well as my 900MHz. Cheap insurance.
I did the same, No pom pom just a ground rod about 5 inches above it. been running strong for 3 months... -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
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cmon69
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:38 pm

I have had the same problem for around the past six months, so on the 4th of July I did what was suggested in this forum. I ran a copper wire along the length of my Omni’s and about 5 to 6 inches above it on two of my towers. Last night (July 11th) we had a thunder storm come threw and one of the two towers that I made this modification to made it threw the storm just fine but the other did not. The card (R52H in a Rb532A) didn’t stop working, but lost around 15 db gain. I am really getting tired of climbing these towers to replace a card every time we get a storm. My towers, and equipment are properly grounded, and there should be no reason that this should be happening. I will start RMAing all these cards that have failed. If I can’t RMA them, then I will stop buying them. If I can’t find a card that will work properly with out failing due to ESD then I will stop using all MikroTik equipment.

Note to MikroTik ….. You better figure out whats going on soon or your going to start losing customers …. We cant afford to replace out a card every time we get a high wind or a storm.
Christapher James Hasher
Waseca Wireless

Don't blame me, I didn't drink the cool-aide!
 
Gerard
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:26 am

It's not Mikrotik's fault. It happens to radio cards and cpu boards made by most vendors.

You have a few options..

relocate your antennas below the top of the tower.. or
use a DC grounded omnis.. or
use an XR2 w/grounding strap on your omni antennas..

-Gerard
Certified Mikrotik Trainer
 
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ghmorris
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:17 am

I don't think its that simple.

We have a lot of towers on granite outcrops, as that is where the high places tends to be.

We have had a LOT of trouble with omnis with no DC grounding, but have got past that pretty well as we junked the un-grounded antennas.

Antenna problems aside, grounding is an inexact science. Grounding effectiveness varies with ground water content and a bunch of other variables that change by location and also change by time of year, and with the price of heavy copper cables today the cost of making a really good tower ground is not trivial.

We had one tower in particular that every time a storm came through we lost radios, power injectors, switch ports or all three above.

We spent a few hundred bucks on some 2/0 copper cable and a couple of good ground plates, dug them into a pair of holes that actually filled with water while we were digging, and haven't had to touch that tower since. I'm not very bright, but if you hit me with a stick hard enough and often enough even I can learn, which is exactly what has happened with grounding and radio failures over the last six years.

The towers on rock with crap grounds blow radios, the towers on soft ground with water close to the surface don't. We are going to spend whatever it takes to fix the grounding issues, then hopefully our trips to fix radio cards will drop dramatically.

We get a huge amount of lightning here, and currently (pun intended) we are double the normal amount of lightning strikes for year to date, so we have to fix this or die.

George
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:49 am

There is something wrong with these cards!!! I use to use Orinoco ROR’s with gold cards and never …. I mean NEVER lost a card!! These cards (SR2, R52H) are way too sensitive. I’m scarred to breathe when I put one into one of my Rb532A on top of a tower!

As far grounding! I didn’t have this problem last year using the same equipment so it has to either be a problem with OS/Driver or a production issue with the cards!

And who the hell decided that it would be cute to put two antenna connectors on these cards anyway… Correct me if I’m wrong but can’t you only use one at any one time anyway? If this is an issue with the diversity chip wouldn’t removing one of the connectors and the chip resolve the issue?
Christapher James Hasher
Waseca Wireless

Don't blame me, I didn't drink the cool-aide!
 
chucka
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:03 pm

Chris,

Problem solved. I had lots of problems with the Pac Wireless omnis several years ago, 2005 to be exact. I lost Prism radios and other radios during almost every storm. You can either use a DC grounded antenna or put a Polyphaser lightning arrestor on your omni to keep the static discharges out of your radio gear. Not a cheapie! Get a Polyphaser LSXM-ME.

I have not had to replace a single radio to due static discharges since 2006 when I installed all the Polyphasers. Well, except once on a tower where I forgot to install the suppressor. :-) That radio lasted until the second lightning storm before it got it's ears blown out. I've posted here before but people still don't believe me I guess. These things just work, try one at least! I'm guessing people try the $20 gas tube suppressors and no they probably won't stop this type of discharge.
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:10 am

chucka ,

Thank you for your input!

My antennas are DC grounded. But I will order a Polyphaser LSXM-ME and see if that resolves the issue!
Christapher James Hasher
Waseca Wireless

Don't blame me, I didn't drink the cool-aide!
 
chucka
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:35 am

Okay, good. When I say DC grounded I mean the internal antenna construction not the mounting of the antenna atop the tower. If you ohm between the center pin of the antenna connector and the outer connector it should show a direct short if it is a true DC grounded antenna. Most omnis are not. I've seen omnis that claim to be DC grounded but they are only grounded through a capacitor. Either way, try a Polyphaser on it, I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I believe it will be your last trip up that tower until you get a direct strike.
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:48 am

AL-LSXM-ME High-Pass Filter Protector


Defacto Wireless
http://shop..com/s.nl/sc.8/category.257/.f
$60.00

Tessco
http://www.tessco.com/products/displayP ... tlet=false
$51.00 List

WLANmall
http://www.wlanmall.com/polyphaser-m-31.html
$49.50

Talley
http://shop.talleycom.com/store/results ... ch_sdr=ASC
$51.00

Hutton
http://www.hol4g.com/ac/product.aspx?nu ... 71827&sc=0
$58.68

Wireless Guys
http://shop.wirelessguys.com/s.nl/sc.13/category.337/.f
$43.00
Christapher James Hasher
Waseca Wireless

Don't blame me, I didn't drink the cool-aide!
 
0ldman
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:07 pm

An update on my little project, the ground running beside the omni works. Survived a strike that hit my electrical ground and fried the POE suppressor and either the ether1 port or the cable itself. Lightning struck within 50 ft of a 200ft tower, didn't blow the diversity chips in 3 radios. Power still works, but no link over the ethernet. AP still works, got a CPE connected wirelessly to feed the system until I replace it.
 
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Re:

Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:56 pm

Image

Connect Pins
TX to A1
RX to A2

The TX & RX pins are the ones closest to the ufl Connectors.
Diversity switch disabled!
can we have the picture one more time?:D
 
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Re: Wireless card recieve blows issue

Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:11 pm

Use :

- DC Grounded Omni
- Use Ethernet surge protector

- Ground your :
- board
- enclosure
- antenna mounting
- etc.


Thx
//Budi
may i want use sepearte earthing wire for all things or same ground is enough
If u like my post , then Hit the Karma! Thanks.
-
Thamizh Maran
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